What's the hardest class you have taken, and what made it hard?

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...//.... I was trying to learn something that I could use in assisting (or perhaps eventually instructing) that would help me or Peter teach in a way that we could impart the information we want and not have the student view the class as overly "hard". ....//.....

Oh.

Same as programming a good user interface. 1) Assume nothing. 2) DON'T EVER SURPRISE THE USER. 3) Feedback is everything, watch how your students interpret your directions.

Think about how you are going to attract the proper population for the course that you want to teach. Start with a list of real, well though-out prerequisites. Like: You can manage to keep yourself off the bottom by finning, buoyancy adjustments, and hand sculling. Or just finning and buoyancy adjustments. Or just buoyancy adjustments. Or just by controlled breathing. -depends on what you want to teach...
 
No, prerequisites were clear. Our perception of our performance was not accurate, but we didn't realize that until we were in the course, with an instuctor that none of us had been with previously. Bob really keyed in on issues that others had not identified (or certainly had not communicated to us effectively) and the tweeks put us in positions that we were not comfortable with - leading to task loading. We left with a much better idea of where we need to be...
 
...
The education is for the student, and not for the instructor. The focus should only be on the students behavior in the water. Always and only, ever, and at any point in the class. Long lectures tend to confuse instructors about where the focus should be, because they get used to it being on themselves while they prattle on, and then the course stops being about the student....And then the instructors do not notice that a student is having trouble with the steps of rescue breathing, or having trouble with buoyancy because the exposure suit is auto-dumping, or trouble reaching the valves because the exposure suit is restricting movement. There is a cause and effect, as scholastic as it might seem. Instructors who think that their office is the water takes that job seriously, and those who think that what they say is their office take that job seriously

Thus, 'hard' classes are born, because the instructor cranks up the lecture volume, and misses the point of the class: the student. (And classes, instructors, and agencies get congratulations for failing to teach students.)

Have you taken any of these "hard" classes you are generalizing about?

If you want to teach people to do skills with their knees in the sand or spend their entire time in an upright position, no, the classes are not going to be hard. After all, if we are in an upright position, gas will never get into our drysuit legs and diving a drysuit just became 100% easier, right? And when our knees are in the sand, we know that we are neither ascending nor descending, right?

If you want teach people to dive with some skill, the class gets a little bit harder. You are gonna have to show them to do things that they have never done before because these things we don't do on land. Doing skills in midwater the first few times is hard even if you have a good instructor because never on land are we ever doing things without having some kind of physical sense as to whether we are stationary or not. I can tell you that as I type this reply, I am not moving any direction. I know that because my arse is planted on my chair. In midwater, the only things I have to rely on to tell me whether I am ascending or descending are my ears and my computer (and maybe my drysuit if I am in cold water). You might fancy yourself as some kind of super instructor but I find it hard to believe that you can make it easy for anyone to learn to do skills midwater. And your drysuit course, your students walk out proficient and claiming it was "easy" to learn?


Divers can teach themselves to dive, without us. You live in Hawaii, so you know there are plenty of shops who fill tanks for people who never went to a dive class who dive for a living, and do so safely for many years. What does that say about what we do?

If your measure of learning or knowing how to dive is getting in 75 degree water with 100ft of vis with a regulator in your mouth, then yes, we can probably do away with not only "difficult" classes but maybe all classes.

However, where the majority of Americans live, the water is colder than 70 degrees. And frequently, the vis is limited. Not all of us do all of our diving in places like Hawaii or Florida. Not all of us have DMs holding our hands from the beginning of the dive to the end. So for us, we need a little more knowledge than how to fall out of the back of the boat, walking along the bottom and hanging on for dear life as we ascend on the anchor line.

You spend a lot of time discrediting lectures and the land portion of an open water class. But I would argue that a lot of dives that go sour, do so long before the divers hit the water. I hear this "back at the boat by 500psi". It is what was taught in my open water class and it is a topic that comes up again and again in Scubaboard.

Gas planning is one of the most important things that we do as divers. It is a critical step in ensuring that, you know, we don't find ourselves at depth with insufficient gas to get tot he surface without being bent. What's your gas planning lecture like? Is it, "lets get in the water and make sure we check our gauges a lot?" Next time you teach an open water class, shortly after you finish the gas planning discussion, ask your students this basic question - assuming an al80, what's the minimum amount of gas a diver will need to get himself and his buddy to the surface in an emergency situation from 66ft? What about 100ft? These concepts are learned in lectures where they are explained. Lectures can be long when instructors are actually trying to impart knowledge beyond "be back at the boat with...".

And lectures can be long when you are trying to explain the benefits on one gear configuration vs. another. One of the things I see in Scubaboard over and over again is, which BC should I buy? You know what this tells me, divers walk out of open water not knowing how to even begin to shop for the gear that will meet their needs now let alone meet their needs if they actually stick to diving. Are your students confident spending $500 or so on a BCD after they finish your Open Water class? Have you checked with those students 3 years later to see if those BCD choices are still meeting their needs? One of the first questions divers will ask themselves when getting into, "diving is what gear should I get?" How do you propose to communicate that to divers outside of a classroom discussion? Or do you follow the "buy what I use during class" approach? BTW, we are aware that dive shops in the U.S. frequently force their instructors to use only gear sold by the shop when teaching open water.

I've seen you go on and on railing on these so called hard classes. I can tell you that some of the hard classes you are so critical about are taught by agencies that produce very capable divers who regularly plan an execute difficult dives. Proof in the pudding, so to speak. Are your producing these caliber of divers? Do you have any video of your students out of open water that we can critique?
 
I think the hardest class was OW. Everyone says rescue, DM, or fundies, but the reality is we all learned to dive in a class where we went from zero to functional in a matter of days. I think OW will always be my most memorable class. I will always be grateful to my OW instructors.

As what can you both do to be better teachers? Be your selves. I doubt there are many people out there who have more passion for Diving. That is infectious!
 
Each of us took OW..most of us took many other classes as well. I think the issue we need to address is how many drastically new skills do you pick up in the class ( plus important new knowledge critical to your diving), AND in comparing all classes taken, which ones packed so much of this in -- that it became more like a huge challenge to complete the class successfully, than just a few minor tweaks and some minor new knowledge--which is what MOST major agency classes are like, due to the nature of the "Modular" Learning systems widely utilized today.

(Saying this as an instructor, so there is a little bit of 'trust me' in this, but that cannot be helped.)

Here's the thing: We can constantly remind students they are learning new skills, or we can just set them up in a situation where they do the new skill without ever realizing they are doing a new skill. Wu wei, as the saying goes, or Upaya/Skillfull Means if you have a bent to Asian philosophy. Muscle memory works regardless of whether a student is aware of a new behavior or not. IME in fact, it works better if the diver is simply not aware that there is any way but the way they are acting.

At the end of a properly taught open water course, OW divers have learned such a drastically changed set of behaviors that if we remind them that they have learned a drastically changed set of behaviors constantly they could get intimidated by the very list of new skills.

Using OW because every diver has done it:/

No student of mine would ever call the OW course I teach hard. It is not because it is not full of skills, multiply repeated, with quiet,in trim neutrally buoyant divers as the end product. It is because I rarely announce what they are doing as a skill because I have found that diving gets harder the harder a student tries at it, and if they are anticipating evaluation (which is in fact what is happening), rather than seeing it as trying out new behaviors for themselves, they will do worse because diving is harder they more effort is put into it. They don't know they are constantly being evaluated. They are.

The use of the personal pronoun is not saying there are not an huge number of non-ego driven instructors who also teach is such a way that the divers are unaware of their progress, and the instructor becomes as much as invisible, it is just that I rarely get to see them, and never get to talk to them IRL.

There are three factors that an instructor can do to make skill progression natural or 'hard':
1. Focus on something other than what students are doing in the water. (My thesis is Lectures is usually where the energy is transferred to.) We have seen a couple examples in this thread not provided by me, where inattention to the water has made the class hard.

2. Confuse bad organization, and insufficient coaching with teaching a complete course, and having students think that hard is somehow a compliment about the course or instructor. We have seen at least one example in this thread not provided by me.

3. Make the student aware of the level of constant evaluation going on, and contribute to student's failure to gain a sense of mastery at a skill because of the constant awareness of evaluation. Telling someone that they must maintain buoyancy, right now, in this space, for evaluation, makes it far less likely that someone will be able to do so. This goes to your quoted comment. Simply put, a progression can be natural, or difficult. Because as instructors, we are trying to ingrain behaviors to be exhibited at every moment on every dive and flow naturally as part of every dive, setting up an evaluation stage is counterproductive to both the long term goal of ingraining diving behavior and the short term goal of evaluation.

IME, all three of those factors are driven largely by ego on the part of the instructor, in some sense:

1. Lectures are where instructors are in complete control and they tend to speak as oracles, rather than pointing divers to further knowledge. There is some basic knowledge necessary for the activity, and there is some current consensus in the diving community, but we instructors are only getting received knowledge (and can change at any time). Pointing the divers to the real experts is a better plan because then later they will look to the original sources for the newest knwoledge, but then we have to take ourselves off of the oracle platform, and just point the students admiration somewhere else.

2. Because a 'hard' course is somehow a compliment in some instructors mind they do not see student failure as a reason to turn their focus on organization, and coaching. With better organization and coaching any course gets easier, and the 'compliment' of course being 'hard' no longer is given, so these instructors are not driven improve their courses, because they would start being told their course was something other than 'hard'.

3. By simply pointing divers past the course constantly, and making skills happen naturally in the course of diving, it is hard not to have students think past the course. If students think past the course, then their allegiance is to the activity of diving, and not to the instructor or the agency, or course. For an instructor who is focused on themselves, it is crucial to maximize briefing, and constantly talk about the skill because they have to keep focus on instructor agency and course. If the skills evaluated just become part of the fabric of the activity of diving, then students are not even aware of the milestones they are passing. Again, the instructor becoming invisible is not an easy thing to swallow.
 
If your measure of learning or knowing how to dive is getting in 75 degree water with 100ft of vis with a regulator in your mouth, then yes, we can probably do away with not only "difficult" classes but maybe all classes.

Don't confuse Hawaii diving with easy.

If you think diving in Hawaii is easy, then next time you go there try some of the dives those locals I mention actually do (Lanai Lookout, FAD buoy diving, Portlock), or some dives off smaller boats(Sea Cave, Split Rock), or even the bigger boat dives (YO-257). GO to the Hawaii Ohana section for mainlander feedback on Oahu diving. There is 'fall off the boat' diving everywhere, but Hawaii is small, and the archipelago is the most isolated in the world, so we have unique conditions that are uniquely challenging, and arise unexpectedly. (That's part of what I was so critical about the GUE OW course: they were showing atrocious ocean awareness which would get those divers into immediate trouble pretty much anywhere in Hawaii outside Shark's Cove and Hanauma Bay. Turning your back on any ocean is silly, standing in fins without masks, and unprotected airways is silly; in Hawaii, it can get you in real trouble immediately, before you ever start a dive.)

The ocean in Hawaii (like every environment) presents unique challenges. I get to lead experienced mainland and cold water divers there all the time, and I rarely hear them say how easy it is to dive there. They do like the relative warmth and visibility, but they tend to suck air the first few dives until they actually start paying attention to the briefs, and stop fighting the surge (and to far lesser extent the current).

Yes the water is warm, and the visibility is good, but those don't make diving easier, just logistically different. Surge in Oahu in particular confuses everyone who first experiences it, and they find it hard to believe that OW divers in classes can deal with it, because experienced cold water seem to be used to a stable platform when in midwater(?) There is no such thing as stability in Hawaii on many dives; divers just have to get used to slinging back and forth several meters(10-12 feet) with the surge throughout the dive, including when they grab the ladder to get back on the boat.

(In fact, the whole reason why some Oahu instructors teach skills neutrally buoyant is because surge in CW makes it impossible for students to stay stable if they are negative, and negative divers will get beat up by the surge in OW classes. That's why I started teaching that way myself.)
 
Yes the water is warm, and the visibility is good, but those don't make diving easier, just logistically different. Surge in Oahu in particular confuses everyone who first experiences it, and they find it hard to believe that OW divers in classes can deal with it, because experienced cold water seem to be used to a stable platform when in midwater(?) There is no such thing as stability in Hawaii on many dives; divers just have to get used to slinging back and forth several meters(10-12 feet) with the surge throughout the dive, including when they grab the ladder to get back on the boat.

10-12+ feet of movement due to surge is something we (including Adobo) deal with not infrequently here in NorCal. I've definitely had days where it was even worse than that. Watching a 30-40' kelp stalk go from horizontal in one direction to horizontal in the other direction is, umm, impressive. We've certainly got our share of relatively dangerous (deadly, in one case) shore entries, due to surf conditions and shoreline type. We also tend to deal with boat diving conditions where 4-6' swells are relatively common. Combine all of that with relatively cold water temperatures, the really thick exposure protection that implies, and the magnifying effect that has on difficulty of buoyancy control for newer divers (especially in 30' and less of water), and sufficed to say most students in OW for the first time are "stressed".

It's absolutely not a competition for who has it worse, but from our perspective getting to shed 8+mm of neoprene around the core and gaining a significant amount of visibility sounds like a fantastic situation, even if we keep the surge and surf. :D Anyway, just wanted to throw a little perspective out there for context. Also, come check out Norcal diving sometime - we'll show you a fun time. :)
 
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(Saying this as an instructor, so there is a little bit of 'trust me' in this, but that cannot be helped.)

Here's the thing: We can constantly remind students they are learning new skills, or we can just set them up in a situation where they do the new skill without ever realizing they are doing a new skill. Wu wei, as the saying goes, or Upaya/Skillfull Means if you have a bent to Asian philosophy. Muscle memory works regardless of whether a student is aware of a new behavior or not. IME in fact, it works better if the diver is simply not aware that there is any way but the way they are acting.

At the end of a properly taught open water course, OW divers have learned such a drastically changed set of behaviors that if we remind them that they have learned a drastically changed set of behaviors constantly they could get intimidated by the very list of new skills.

Using OW because every diver has done it:/

No student of mine would ever call the OW course I teach hard. It is not because it is not full of skills, multiply repeated, with quiet,in trim neutrally buoyant divers as the end product. It is because I rarely announce what they are doing as a skill because I have found that diving gets harder the harder a student tries at it, and if they are anticipating evaluation (which is in fact what is happening), rather than seeing it as trying out new behaviors for themselves, they will do worse because diving is harder they more effort is put into it. They don't know they are constantly being evaluated. They are.

The use of the personal pronoun is not saying there are not an huge number of non-ego driven instructors who also teach is such a way that the divers are unaware of their progress, and the instructor becomes as much as invisible, it is just that I rarely get to see them, and never get to talk to them IRL.

There are three factors that an instructor can do to make skill progression natural or 'hard':
1. Focus on something other than what students are doing in the water. (My thesis is Lectures is usually where the energy is transferred to.) We have seen a couple examples in this thread not provided by me, where inattention to the water has made the class hard.

2. Confuse bad organization, and insufficient coaching with teaching a complete course, and having students think that hard is somehow a compliment about the course or instructor. We have seen at least one example in this thread not provided by me.

3. Make the student aware of the level of constant evaluation going on, and contribute to student's failure to gain a sense of mastery at a skill because of the constant awareness of evaluation. Telling someone that they must maintain buoyancy, right now, in this space, for evaluation, makes it far less likely that someone will be able to do so. This goes to your quoted comment. Simply put, a progression can be natural, or difficult. Because as instructors, we are trying to ingrain behaviors to be exhibited at every moment on every dive and flow naturally as part of every dive, setting up an evaluation stage is counterproductive to both the long term goal of ingraining diving behavior and the short term goal of evaluation.

IME, all three of those factors are driven largely by ego on the part of the instructor, in some sense:

1. Lectures are where instructors are in complete control and they tend to speak as oracles, rather than pointing divers to further knowledge. There is some basic knowledge necessary for the activity, and there is some current consensus in the diving community, but we instructors are only getting received knowledge (and can change at any time). Pointing the divers to the real experts is a better plan because then later they will look to the original sources for the newest knwoledge, but then we have to take ourselves off of the oracle platform, and just point the students admiration somewhere else.

2. Because a 'hard' course is somehow a compliment in some instructors mind they do not see student failure as a reason to turn their focus on organization, and coaching. With better organization and coaching any course gets easier, and the 'compliment' of course being 'hard' no longer is given, so these instructors are not driven improve their courses, because they would start being told their course was something other than 'hard'.

3. By simply pointing divers past the course constantly, and making skills happen naturally in the course of diving, it is hard not to have students think past the course. If students think past the course, then their allegiance is to the activity of diving, and not to the instructor or the agency, or course. For an instructor who is focused on themselves, it is crucial to maximize briefing, and constantly talk about the skill because they have to keep focus on instructor agency and course. If the skills evaluated just become part of the fabric of the activity of diving, then students are not even aware of the milestones they are passing. Again, the instructor becoming invisible is not an easy thing to swallow.

I don't really understand how I could go from shaking my head at most of your posts in this thread to nodding at this one. :idk:

THe best instructors I've had, from two different agencies, weren't focused on being "hard" as described above... and the level of learning/skills acquisition I got out of those classes was significantly greater than from the one stereotypical "hard" class I took. I just recently finished a class that is supposed to be very "hard" and I had a very pleasant experience - it was challenging/stressful at times, but mostly I enjoyed myself as I learned new skills and improved old ones.

I can't figure this out, am I agreeing with you now?:confused:
 
Don't confuse Hawaii diving with easy.

If you think diving in Hawaii is easy, then next time you go there try some of the dives those locals I mention actually do (Lanai Lookout, FAD buoy diving, Portlock), or some dives off smaller boats(Sea Cave, Split Rock), or even the bigger boat dives (YO-257). GO to the Hawaii Ohana section for mainlander feedback on Oahu diving. There is 'fall off the boat' diving everywhere.

Shrug.

I usually look for locals when I go to the various islands. Saves me the expense of hiring a dive guide to find the interesting diving.

And I am sure there is 'fall off the boat' diving everywhere, but in some places, if that's all you are capable of doing, you will likely be taking up golf or bowling shortly thereafter.

(That's part of what I was so critical about the GUE OW course: they were showing atrocious ocean awareness which would get those divers into immediate trouble pretty much anywhere in Hawaii outside Shark's Cove and Hanauma Bay. Turning your back on any ocean is silly, standing in fins without masks, and unprotected airways is silly; in Hawaii, it can get you in real trouble immediately, before you ever start a dive.)

I myself have a few opinions on what GUE can do to make their classes better, but my opinions are based on actual real life experience as opposed to 3 second snippets from an internet video. I mean, you don't see what happened before or after the snippet. And even worse, the camera gives you only a tunnel visioned perspective of what was going on. I am probably as opinionated as the next person but I hope I use enough sense to understand a situation before commenting negatively about it all over an internet forum.

The ocean in Hawaii (like every environment) presents unique challenges. I get to lead experienced mainland and cold water divers there all the time, and I rarely hear them say how easy it is to dive there.

Why would they bother? What's to be accomplished? I mean, a comment like that could easily be interpreted negatively.

Yes the water is warm, and the visibility is good, but those don't make diving easier, just logistically different.

I see.

So, you offer a lot of opinions that some find to be incredibly different and contrary. Would you be kind enough to share some background about yourself? Examples would be:

- Dive experience (where have you dived and roughly how many times have you dived there? Also what kind of dives were they?)
- Training (what agencies have you taken training from and what certifications where you issued?
- I take it that you are an instructor, what level of instruction are you currently offering?

Usually, people's opinions in the internet stand (or not) on their own merit and require little background info on the person offering the opinion. However, in this case, I think I would have a greater appreciation about some of your perspectives if I understood better the various experiences that helped shaped these perspectives in the first place.

(In fact, the whole reason why some Oahu instructors teach skills neutrally buoyant is because surge in CW makes it impossible for students to stay stable if they are negative, and negative divers will get beat up by the surge in
OW
classes. That's why I started teaching that way myself.)

Awesome.

If you have a website or something with videos of your students shortly after class fun diving or whatever, I for one would love to see.
 
Humility?

Now that funny right there ... :D

Diving words to live by: P7

(Proper Planing and Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance)
'Cause there's no such thing as, "just a simple dive"

Love it !!!

... and if we're still on what makes classes hard:

Fundies was a huge eye opener. Someone described Fundies as "learning to do simple things with precision", which is pretty spot on. The skills and level of precision was very different from other classes I'd taken, but exactly the kind of learning I'd been looking for.

And that's probably where it got hard. Not from pressure from the instructor - who was super supportive - but due to personality. I thrive on precision and perfection ... and beat myself up *hard* when I don't perform to my (unrealistic) standards.

I was very fortunate to take class with a great group of super supportive divers - we all had bad days where we were beating ourselves up, and the group was always there with encouragement (thanks Sam :wink:)

But Tech 1 was harder for me; the expectations to prerequisite skills were high, but not unreasonable. "Just" :) that the skills taught/introduced in Fundies were now solid and would take little effort and attention - leaving "mental room" for all the new skills. For a variety of reasons I *really* wanted to take and pass the class, and between struggling with one particular basic skill and beating myself up for that - and everything else - I had a pretty ****ty time - and didn't pass. It was 6 really long and draining days, but I think the mental stuff going on was what made it hard. The class stuff was challenging, but not "hard" as such.

Henrik
 
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