Cozumel Incident 9/4/11

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...which touches on the 'moral hazard' concept......would donating $ essentially be subsidizing irresponsible behavior, thus encouraging future irresponsible behavior ? Also, with respect to insurance, those of us who have (and pay good $ for) insurance, feel it unjust to have to pay our own way to have access to health/medical resources while others 'freeload' ? I could probably afford more actual scuba diving if I didn't have to pay my pesky taxes/insurance....while others don't have those costs and get to have fun at the expense of the financially responsible people ?

.....the US economy (and the European economy) are all still essentially on their knees over the issue of moral hazard......the subsidy of irresponsible behavior......the US taxpayer bailing out all the banks.....Europe bailing out Greece and others......a living breathing example of moral hazard that's impacting all of us daily !!!

...yeah, I know it sounds harsh, especially when the 'victims' divers families/kids are involved, who are innocent bystanders, of course......but I'm putting this out there anyway, because I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this......
My donation was *not* based on whether behavior in this incident warranted it.
I've never met any of these people, and I don't know them. However, *regardless* of the circumstances, they're part of a community I participate in... they are obviously loved... they're in pain... they're in need... and they're in a place I wouldn't wish on anyone...

And, finally, my donation was *my* choice... it wasn't legislated by someone else...
 
I feel for ya, scubafanatic. In the Coz forum there should be a sticky stating: "Dissenting opinions will be greeted with disfavor." Thanks for charging forward, and making your report anyway.

Is that copyrighted or can I use that on my signature line? :D
 
...which touches on the 'moral hazard' concept......would donating $ essentially be subsidizing irresponsible behavior, thus encouraging future irresponsible behavior ? Also, with respect to insurance, those of us who have (and pay good $ for) insurance, feel it unjust to have to pay our own way to have access to health/medical resources while others 'freeload' ? I could probably afford more actual scuba diving if I didn't have to pay my pesky taxes/insurance....while others don't have those costs and get to have fun at the expense of the financially responsible people ?

.....the US economy (and the European economy) are all still essentially on their knees over the issue of moral hazard......the subsidy of irresponsible behavior......the US taxpayer bailing out all the banks.....Europe bailing out Greece and others......a living breathing example of moral hazard that's impacting all of us daily !!!

...yeah, I know it sounds harsh, especially when the 'victims' divers families/kids are involved, who are innocent bystanders, of course......but I'm putting this out there anyway, because I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this......
I don't have any company subsidized benefits, I pay for my insurance (and it's not cheap) and then still pay way too much out of pocket whenever I actually have to go to a doctor or get an Rx. I don't take for granted that I am fortunate enough to have the finances to do so, and to take vacations, afford a couple pricey hobbies, etc. In one of my jobs, believe me, I see more then I want to about what's wrong with our medical system. I also see that a lot of those you might put in the "freeloader" bucket are actually hard working, honest people with no other option. When you're at the top of the ladder and never spend any time with people who aren't, it's easy to think that.

Mexico, and many other dive destinations, aren't at all like the US when it comes to health care, wages, etc. I don't want to judge because I know nothing about this shop's business. I don't know what their earnings are, overhead expenses, what they pay their staff, if the staff is f/t with any benefits or just long-term freelancers. Like I'm sure many following the threads about this accidents, I find it surprising and a little baffling that an American dive shop owner/dm/instructor would be completely uninsured. No medical coverage at all. Forget about just for diving and the risks of injury with that, but if she had any kind of accident or illness requiring medical attention beyond just a doctor's office visit, she wasn't insured and considering the current situation, probably wouldn't have had the means to pay for it. I don't know enough about the Mexican healthcare system to know what Mexican nationals are entitled to and whether or not they need or commonly have any sort of private medical insurance.

I don't know what dive master's earn, but for as long as I've been diving, regardless of the destination, I hear over and over that it's not much... not sure what that means, or as compared to what? I have no idea how realistic it is in Cozumel for a dm with a family to support to be able to afford additional insurance. To us this kind of stuff is just a required line item in our personal budgeting, but there, I don't know.

I don't agree with rewarding stupidity. I do, however, have compassion and know that nobody is perfect. We ALL make mistakes and any one of us, at anytime, could find ourselves in a position where we need help, whether we contributed to getting ourselves in that position or not. As bad as our economy is, and as much as we may have lost in the market over the last year or so, if we are still planning dive trips then we are still way ahead of millions of other people who are trying to figure out what bills they can hold off on paying so that they can get groceries this week.

Kids don't choose their circumstances and I don't feel they should ever have to pay for their parent's mistakes. Everyone has to do what they feel comfortable with. I'm sure that after reading the alleged details of this accident, a lot of people did change their minds and chose not to donate. That's their choice. I would just say that if they're ever in a position of needing any kind of help from strangers, family or friends, I hope they are ready for the same level of scrutiny and if they have children, I hope they're prepared to explain to them that because mummy or daddy made a mistake, they have to also pay the price.
 
It has been explained that divers leveled off then another kept going and 1 pursued in an apparent effort to rescue that diver. What downcurrent was happening while 1 diver stayed at a shallower depth than others? Wouldn't that suggest the downcurrent claim is close to if not 100% fabricated?
Where did you get that I was saying it wasn't? All I was saying is that no matter how much explaining is done, there are only three people who were there and there are data which may never come to light. Even the boat captain, chamber personnel, other dive professionals on the island, etc. were not there at depth when it happened. True, if data has been recovered from computers there is hard data on maximum depth. but there is a lot more to what happened than that.
 
I'm going out on a limb here by looking at the dive table. Specifically, the June, 2009, NAVSEA "Schedules in the Integrated Air Decompression Table of U.S. Navy Diving Manual, Revision 6: Computation and Estimated Risks of Decompression Sickness". These tables are 10 years newer and more conservative than the '99 USN Tables that many divers still use.

According to this document, a 5-minute dive to bottom depth 250fsw on air alone, requires a 3-minute stop at 20fsw. Ascent time to that stop is 7 min. 40 sec., with a total ascent time 11 min., 20 sec. The deco stop is reduced by 1 minute at the same depth if the diver uses O2 for deco. The ending PG is Z+++ and a short chamber ride (or long in-water recompression with full face mask) with O2 is required.

So the planned dive -- and we really don't know the planned depth, do we? -- would have been doable had the participants followed accepted guidelines for that dive

Bold & underline added by me... the table you're referring to is a Bend & Mend schedule for commercial (Navy) diving from vessels with an onboard recompression chamber, O2 supply and/or in-water recompression facilities (which include LOTS of O2, thermal protection & support divers in addition to the full-face mnasks mentioned) none of which were available here. These are not "accepted guidelines" for recreational diving & it's not at all relevant to this incident. If you follow that table without recompression you will get seriously injured, which is exactly what happened
 
Where did you get that I was saying it wasn't? All I was saying is that no matter how much explaining is done, there are only three people who were there and there are data which may never come to light. Even the boat captain, chamber personnel, other dive professionals on the island, etc. were not there at depth when it happened. True, if data has been recovered from computers there is hard data on maximum depth. but there is a lot more to what happened than that.

Sorry you misunderstood......it wasn't directed towards you I was bringing it up just to say if that first diver who claimed it was some sort of current that got them to that level that appears to not be true in a number of ways, like the fact that they leveled off and the fact that it was initially planned to go very deep before even entering the water.

I found it ....I was referring to this that you were responding too....it didn't copy that quote.....

Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
WSOPFAN, I suspect that my dive computer has data for dives from multiple trips. How is it that data is "not preserved?"

I am curious how "many people" could know the details of the planned dive and actual events. One of the injured stated in another thread that a downcurrent forced them lower than planned...yet several pages back, someone stated that a downcurrent was not a factor.

Hi Dave.
 


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

I removed several posts, and most of you know why. Please keep your posts, civil, polite and informative.

Several posters are on the verge of losing access to the A&I forum for the manner in which they continue to engage other members. This is the only warning that will be given so I would advise you to consider your words wisely.
 
Bold & underline added by me... the table you're referring to is a Bend & Mend schedule for commercial (Navy) diving from vessels with an onboard recompression chamber, O2 supply and/or in-water recompression facilities (which include LOTS of O2, thermal protection & support divers in addition to the full-face mnasks mentioned) none of which were available here. These are not "accepted guidelines" for recreational diving & it's not at all relevant to this incident. If you follow that table without recompression you will get seriously injured, which is exactly what happened

Almost exactly my points, thanks. I do think it's relevant because dive planning requires a foundation for decision making and this is the most readily available and reliable via internet search, which is how most is done in Coz. I suppose they could have consulted a tech diver trained in deep diving -- if they know such a person. Or the Mexican Navy dive team based here.

I don't think any recreational dive computer can handle such a profile without returning an error. Yes or no?

One point I should have made is that the info presented doesn't account for contingency planning.

Now we're having a conversation!
 
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