Who nose?

[g1138]

I hear you there - I didn't really feel comfortable with my first instructor but really liked the second and learned far more as he was willing to take time to listen. Funny thing is when you sign up you have no idea what to expect nor really know a good instructor till he drops you in the water

Too true, all of us posters on the board say "oh ask your instructors these questions" "interview your instructor before taking the class"
In reality it's really daunting for someone to do this.
I know I wouldn't have done it when I was starting out, even if someone told me to.
Heck I barely knew what I was doing walking around a dive shop

 

[mjatkins]

You are correct, "fairly commmon" is a misstatement. It is reported on occasion, though. My mask has been dislodged by a fin before, and it has slipped off my head during a backroll entry. What I should have said is, it is too common an occurence for it to be a catastrophic event if if happens.

this post edited

 

[vladimir]

but neither of the things you just described are "having your mask kicked off"

When the OP took off her mask (not had it kicked off, but took it off) she "proceeded to choke and swallow water for a minute until we could go up." When she took it off again, she "had to surface before I totally drowned myself." I have been assured I am out of my depth in this discussion, so I will defer to your expertise as an instructor: how often does a diver have to lose a mask for it to be an unacceptable risk for somebody who reacts to the situation in that manner? In my OW-certified, amateur opinion, that level of unease needs to be resolved before she can safely dive unsupervised.

 

[Zeldah]

Too true, all of us posters on the board say "oh ask your instructors these questions" "interview your instructor before taking the class"
In reality it's really daunting for someone to do this.
I know I wouldn't have done it when I was starting out, even if someone told me to.
Heck I barely knew what I was doing walking around a dive shop

I think asking questions sounds like a good plan but where I took my course you could get any of the instructors and there seemed to be a few. I found the owner of the store really helpful and nice and that was why I chose there. My first day instructor (whom I didn't like) was a lawyer in the real world and I remember reading a joke about lawyers and the bottom of the ocean - I get it now

No insult to any lawyers intended ... o.k. well just a tad maybe

 

[Zeldah]

When the OP took off her mask (not had it kicked off, but took it off) she "proceeded to choke and swallow water for a minute until we could go up." When she took it off again, she "had to surface before I totally drowned myself." I have been assured I am out of my depth in this discussion, so I will defer to your expertise as an instructor: how often does a diver have to lose a mask for it to be an unacceptable risk for somebody who reacts to the situation in that manner? In my OW-certified, amateur opinion, that level of unease needs to be resolved before she can safely dive unsupervised.

Hey Vlad - I sat on the bottom of the pool trying to calm myself and complete the one minute task. I accomplished this, I did not panic but did not enjoy water going up my nose and down my throat every few breaths of air but I did do it. When I tried the swim I managed it but could not get my mask to clear so yes I did eventually surface as I did have water going up my nose and I was getting stressed by then - probably after a minute or so underwater - my overdramatic "before I totally drowned myself" is my attempt at humour. I went straight back down and yes held my nose for the swim and subsequent donning of the mask and I stayed on the bottom extra time to show my instructor how calmly I could accomplish this holding my nose. So your comment of "how many times does a diver have to lose their mask" is irrelevant - it was a skill that I struggled at and yes if it happened in open water I would be stressed but again could probably (I know you will have issue with that word) manage without holding my nose but until I am that comfortable, holding my nose takes away the "probably" and turns it into a definately would be fine. Thanks for caring though!

 

[Bubbletrubble]

As an instructor, students surprise me day after day. Many times I find myself thinking "is what just happened okay?" and when I consult my slates which contain the standards, I find that yes, it was okay. Does every student execute every skill the way that *I* would? No, they don't. If they meet the standard of their training agency is that okay? Of course it is, unless I think that I'm somehow better than my agency.

@Karibelle: I've talked with other PADI instructors who feel the same way you do about this.

Let me share a real-life example. A few years ago, I was talking to a local instructor who had just finished with a basic OW class dive. She was happy to share that all of her students had passed the PADI skill requirements for the day. She remarked, with a fair amount of amusement, that one of her students was able to hover for the specified time but could only do so in an inverted position (head-down/feet-up). I asked her how she handled the situation. The instructor told me that she checked her slate and there was nothing that stated in which position the student could hover, so she had to pass the student. She said she tried to hold her student's legs down...but her legs just kept floating up! There was no discussion with the student afterward about the benefits of diving/hovering in horizontal trim or how one might alter the distribution of weight/gear to help promote horizontal trim.

For the sake of that student and others in her class, I kind of wish that the instructor could have seen the value in supererogation.

@Zeldah: What I've been trying to say in this thread is that, when it comes to OW class skills, there's a baseline level of performance (I wouldn't describe it as "mastery") that your PADI instructor is looking for. It's entirely possible for you to demonstrate good-enough performance to "pass" the skill (e.g., hold your nose closed while your mask is off) and yet still fall short of the greater goal of becoming a safe, comfortable, confident diver.

A healthy attitude to adopt is to view OW certification as the first step in learning how to be a competent diver. Dive with different people. Ask experienced divers why they do things in a certain way. Keep an open mind to their explanations, even if they appear to be incompatible with what your OW instructor deemed to be "good enough" to pass for OW certification.

 

[vladimir]

Hey Vlad - I sat on the bottom of the pool trying to calm myself and complete the one minute task. I accomplished this, I did not panic but did not enjoy water going up my nose and down my throat every few breaths of air but I did do it. When I tried the swim I managed it but could not get my mask to clear so yes I did eventually surface as I did have water going up my nose and I was getting stressed by then - probably after a minute or so underwater - my overdramatic "before I totally drowned myself" is my attempt at humour. I went straight back down and yes held my nose for the swim and subsequent donning of the mask and I stayed on the bottom extra time to show my instructor how calmly I could accomplish this holding my nose. So your comment of "how many times does a diver have to lose their mask" is irrelevant - it was a skill that I struggled at and yes if it happened in open water I would be stressed but again could probably (I know you will have issue with that word) manage without holding my nose but until I am that comfortable, holding my nose takes away the "probably" and turns it into a definately would be fine. Thanks for caring though!

Zeldah, I suspect you will be fine with a little bit of practice. Sorry I missed the hyperbolic tone of your post and took it quite literally. These threads often continue on a meandering and hypothetical course long after the initial question is answered.

Coincidentally, a relevant thread just popped up that may interest you: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/347180-ever-lost-your-mask.html

 

[mjatkins]

When the OP took off her mask (not had it kicked off, but took it off) she "proceeded to choke and swallow water for a minute until we could go up." When she took it off again, she "had to surface before I totally drowned myself." I have been assured I am out of my depth in this discussion, so I will defer to your expertise as an instructor: how often does a diver have to lose a mask for it to be an unacceptable risk for somebody who reacts to the situation in that manner? In my OW-certified, amateur opinion, that level of unease needs to be resolved before she can safely dive unsupervised.

I would agree with you, it would need to be resolved. As with any problems that a student faces in completing the skills, the OP will need to find a solution that they and there instructor are comfortable with.

My point was not about any of that, it was about the assertion that having your mask kicked off was common. I don't believe it is common based on my experience. And I feel that telling an open water student that it is a common occurrence is just not productive. When people are struggling with a skill they rarely perform it with greater ease and comfort if we then associate an unnecessary layer of fear with it. That just tends to make the problem that much worse.

 

[Karibelle]

@Karibelle: I've talked with other PADI instructors who feel the same way you do about this.

Let me share a real-life example. A few years ago, I was talking to a local instructor who had just finished with a basic OW class dive. She was happy to share that all of her students had passed the PADI skill requirements for the day. She remarked, with a fair amount of amusement, that one of her students was able to hover for the specified time but could only do so in an inverted position (head-down/feet-up). I asked her how she handled the situation. The instructor told me that she checked her slate and there was nothing that stated in which position the student could hover, so she had to pass the student. She said she tried to hold her student's legs down...but her legs just kept floating up! There was no discussion with the student afterward about the benefits of diving/hovering in horizontal trim or how one might alter the distribution of weight/gear to help promote horizontal trim.

For the sake of that student and others in her class, I kind of wish that the instructor could have seen the value in supererogation.

I'm not sure you understand how I feel about this, and so I'm not clear on how this example relates to this discussion, or to my part in it. I was pretty clear in post #13.

 

[klinc]

My wife had an issue in class while underwater with her mask off and getting water up her nose.

Our instructor pretty much said if you cannot go under water with your mask off without holding your nose he cannot certify you. He worked with her in the pool a bit (we had 20-25 mask clears every pool session) and she was finally able to swim around while we were buddy breathing without masks. She wasn't comfortable doing it by any means but she was able to complete the requirement.

I can see very easily why this would be a good thing. You're not going to be holding your nose the instant your mask gets knocked off (haven't had this happen myself) and you would need to be able to control the water from going up your nose and freaking yourself out into doing stupid things.