How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

[scubadiver888]

She should have asked when you're able to dive while wearing split-fins but without a Spare-Air! (+/- Air2)

Isn't that when you remember not to wear your mask on your forehead?

 

[Hank49]

A diver getting certified in the Bay of Fundy, who spent his youth surfing in Hawaii, and going on vacation in Belize can most likely dive unsupervised right away.

A diver from Iowa who has never seen the ocean, getting certified in Belize and then going to dive in Puget Sound near that place with the whirl pool...Deception Pass....I think that's it......watch out. Not ready.

In summary, it depends.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So, Bob, do we acknowledge and accept that many instructors will train substandard divers and that dive operators/instabuddies will bear the brunt of that dismal training, or do we tilt at windmills and do everything in our power to ensure that lousy instructors are censured and removed from the diving gene pool, as it were.

That depends on whether you want to talk about how things should be or how they are.

Have you never seen a thread on ScubaBoard lamenting the dismal state of dive training. Dear God, man ... there's one particular poster on this board who used to start such threads about once a month. There MUST be a reason why.

Do we accept this with our CFI's or our drivers ed teachers? Is mediocrity now the accepted substitute for superiority? If we expect divers coming out of training to not be able to dive without a professional, how far should we lower the bar? Why bother issuing a c-card at all? Let's make all divers dive with a professional. Oh, Snap. We did that by allowing divers to have a Scuba Diver certification card. Cut the standards to something barely above resort course, and make the diver dive with a DM. If this is the case (and it appears that it is), then we can now raise the bar for Open Water courses and make those students able to fend for themselves in most conditions. If there is a desire.

OF course there's a desire ... and for practical purposes that desire can only be accomplished at the individual level ... either that or disband the training agencies, remove the responsibility of training from dive businesses who have an economic motivation to keep them as short and incomplete as possible, and start over with an independent certification process that is not built around an agenda of "diving is easy" and "anyone can dive".

But until we do that ... let's deal with reality ...

For you and I to argue that "Open Water training sucks, let's deal with it" vs" Open water training sucks, let's fix it" gives more indication that the industry has already lost the battle. Now that we've decided we're prostitutes, all that's left to determine is the price at which we can be bought.

Sad.

Oh, cut the dramatic crap ... you live in the same world I do ... and at my age I just don't have the energy for idealism.

Ignoring the deficiencies in current dive training is like pretending that you can cut the teen pregnancy rate by telling the kids to "just say no".

Personally, I'd rather recognize the reality and tell people that this is how it is, here's why, and here's what they ... as individual divers and consumers ... need to know about it. Because if it's ever going to change, it won't be the agencies or dive ops who change it ... they have a financial motivation for keeping standards low, after all ... it will be because the public becomes aware of the situation and decides they would prefer to buy a higher-quality product.

You're only ever going to get there by talking about it ... why don't you wait till the lady's article comes out before you decide it's all wrong ...


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

You're only ever going to get there by talking about it ... why don't you wait till the lady's article comes out before you decide it's all wrong ...


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Point taken. I shall watch and learn. I hope when the article is published, she comes back to resurrect this thread and tell us what publication it's in.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

According to her post she writes for California Diver. In reply to the email she sent me requesting permission to quote me I asked how I could get a copy of the magazine. And Frank, your request to see an article on how divers can pick a quality instructor- it is coming in March. Not an article but a chapter from my book. I guess now is as good a time as any to post a little teaser:

Table of Contents

1. Safe Diving Practices- My own view.
2. Basic Skills- You really need all of these.
3. Buddy Skills- Why it really does matter.
4. Dive Planning- A new perspective.
5. Gas Management- It is that important.
6. Trust Me Dives- Why would you even consider it?
7. When to Get More Training and Why- There are times when it is called for.
8. Choosing an Instructor- They do work for you after all.
9. What Type of Training is Best for You? It isn’t all the same.
10. Choosing a Local Dive Shop.
11. Gear Selection and Your LDS.
12. Equipment – Rent or Buy?
13. Why Dive Locally?

More to come in a separate thread over the next few weeks. My editor says the last chapter reads like a love letter to local diving. An excerpt from that will open the thread I'll be starting.

 

[flots am]

Ignoring the deficiencies in current dive training is like pretending that you can cut the teen pregnancy rate by telling the kids to "just say no".

Personally, I'd rather recognize the reality and tell people that this is how it is, here's why, and here's what they ... as individual divers and consumers ... need to know about it. Because if it's ever going to change, it won't be the agencies or dive ops who change it ... they have a financial motivation for keeping standards low, after all ... it will be because the public becomes aware of the situation and decides they would prefer to buy a higher-quality product.

I think an actual magazine article on this very subject is an awesome idea.

It could come with a little survey before the text and say:

"When you finished your open water class, (were you / would you have been) safe and happy diving with just a buddy, in conditions similar to or better than where you were certified?"

Then go on to describe that the above is an actual requirement for OW certification and if the answer is "no" then something was wrong with your traning.

It would be incredibly cool to watch this get the publicity it deserves instead of being hidden here on SB.

flots

 

[boulderjohn]

These folks show up at the dive operator thinking we'll do everything for them, from putting their gear together, to holding their hand and checking their gauges underwater. They don't understand when we expect them to be self sufficient, have their own save-a-dive kit, and be ready to jump in when the gate opens.

I think a lot of this sort of thing comes from the divers' experiences.

I became OW certified years ago, and, living as I do in a state with very little to offer in terms of local diving, I couldn't wait until I went on my first dive trip, which was in Cozumel. There dives must by law be led by a DM. They put our gear together for us and checked our gauges. They had their save-a-dive kits ready to go in case of trouble. What was I to know? I thought that was how it was done.

I want on a bunch of trips to different places, and they were all like that. Every one. Again, I figured that was how diving worked. Then I got on a boat in Florida and we headed out to the site. I kept wondering when someone was going to set my gear up for me. After a while I figured out that it wasn't going to happen and started setting my own gear up just as we were arriving at the dive site. Now, let's see--how does that regulator go on again?

I will bet that a lot of divers walk out of their OW classes trained to dive independently but then go out in "the real world" and see something entirely different. I think it is very possible that there are divers with 100 dives or more who have not set up their gear since the were in OW class and have never been in a situation where planning and leading an independent dive was even an option. Do that long enough and any semblance of independence you may have had after OW training will be totally lost.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I remember well my first tropical dive trip. Cheng was a pretty new diver, with maybe a dozen dives. I was more "experienced" ... I had almost 50 dives under my weightbelt.

We went to Belize ... Ambergris Caye. There were two other couples on our boat. One couple had just got certified down there the previous weekend. The other had been diving since the late '80's, had hundreds of dives ... and had never been diving without a dive guide.

When we told them we dived without guides at home, the wife asked us ... "but isn't that dangerous ?"



... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

I want on a bunch of trips to different places, and they were all like that. Every one. Again, I figured that was how diving worked. Then I got on a boat in Florida and we headed out to the site. I kept wondering when someone was going to set my gear up for me. After a while I figured out that it wasn't going to happen and started setting my own gear up just as we were arriving at the dive site. Now, let's see--how does that regulator go on again?

So, is it just in the United States that the dive operators don't coddle their divers? Most operators I know don't provide in-water supervision because of insurance requirements. When I worked on a liveaboard in the Caribbean, we had guides in the water, but they weren't necessarily supervisors unless you asked them to be. I've dived all over the world, but I guess I tend to choose operators that let me do my own thing. I dive with Aldora in Coz, and they would never think of touching my gear. In Key West, the only day boat I've had the pleasure of being on, the DM tried to change my tank out for me, but stopped when I asked him to. In that case, it was a lack of room on deck for all divers to change out their own tanks. It would have turned into a CF. Even so, there isn't a DM in the water while the dive is taking place. Maybe the standard should be that all divers are supervised. Boy, that'd get a bunch of folks blood pressure up.....

 

[boulderjohn]

So, is it just in the United States that the dive operators don't coddle their divers? .

I've been around, and I think it varies dramatically everywhere. Most of the operators I have used in the Caribbean tend to lead your dives. As for the rest of the world, it depends a whole lot on the situation. Some dive sites are benign enough to let anyone dive independently, but others call for an experienced DM. For example, when I was in Yap, even our dive master missed the opening in the wall that led to Yap Caverns--we never could have found it on our own. I have been on liveaboards where most dives were done independently but the ones where you really had to navigate to specific places put guides in the water. I did some dives in Thailand where we would have lost about half the divers without a guide. A DM in the water in the Galapagos was a necessity.

BTW, Aldora must know you don't want your gear set up--they usually set up the gear for their customers.