Recreational Wreck Diving vs Cave Diving. Why the Inconsistency?

[DevonDiver]

...... have never taken any formal training other than self taught, research and dove with more experienced wreck divers.

That sounds like good training to me

After all... what is training except benefiting from the shared knowledge of a more experienced wreck diver, at a cost.

That's why I hate how the agencies permit inexperienced wreck divers to teach these courses, just because they have an instructor ticket...

The only person that should regulate you is yourself IMO.

Most wrecks require a boat to reach them. Very few scuba divers own boats... so there could be regulation. Not necessarily by qualification, because experience counts for a lot also.... but my point is that dive charters could provide a 'screening' of divers if they wanted to.

Why can't the wrecks be graded.

I am surprised that a qualified wreck instructor would need to ask this. Wrecks change a lot over time. One storm can create new dangers, collapse passages, weaken structures....even change wreck location completely. One passing trawler can coat a wreck with monofilament and steel trace netting..

A diver needs the capacity to conduct an accurate risk assessment on every visit to a wreck. I used to dive the same wrecks day-in, day-out. It was hard to guard against complacency...but I knew that succumbing to that could bite me in the arse.

They also blow whoppin big holes in their hulls so entry and exits are available at many points within the ship.

They did this in the UK also. I loved diving the HMS Syclla. It was the perfect, pre-prepared, opened up wreck. Divers have still died in it though

Let the divers make their own decisions based on risk assessment, rather than a trying to enforce a law (sic) that is impossible to enforce.

Exactly. Which is why I think a 2-day recreational wreck course is not sufficient. It's all about risk assesment - and that relies on understanding the risk.

There's no 20-dive PADI instructor who can share enough experience of those risks...and the proper technique to mitigate them...

 

[Superlyte27]

I'm reminded of the guy who fought passionately to remove the Required Helmet Law in Florida. Which I fully support. He vehemently fought to abandon this law, and eventually through the struggle, Florida did drop this law. Less than a year later, that same man sustained a head injury from a motorcycle accident that would have been prevented by a helmet. He died.

Scuba is no different. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but your choices might kill you. Good Luck.

 

[Superlyte27]

Let's talk about "cave" diving first. There is a wide spectrum of what one MIGHT call a cave. At one extreme is a shallow arch that an untrained skin diver can swim through easily. Then come longer and deeper swim throughs that are still easily done every day by recreational divers. Then we have short lava tubes and sea caves. Then we get into real caverns. Finally we have real caves. At some point--and people will argue that point--we shift from perfectly safe for a recreational diver to requiring some recreational training. At another point we shift to technical training required.

It seems to me that wreck diving is the same thing. Some wrecks are so small, open, and benign that I cannot imagine any OW diver having a problem with them. The wrecks get increasingly complex, and at some point you have to draw the line and require some recreational training. At another point you must have more technical training. If you were to demand technical training for any wreck penetration, the dive industry in the Fort Lauderdale area would end overnight.

At the point where all surface light is gone, I consider it a cave.
At the point where all surface light is gone in a wreck, I will treat it the same as a cave.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

So... I've *heard* that often there is a guided wreck penetration dive as the last dive or two of the basic PADI Wreck Specialty Class, have others heard of this? Why is this the case? Pretty silly if you asked me, especially since alot of the instructors don't have the experience nor training to be doing these dives themselves. Also I think it just encourages wreck penetration by untrained divers, "If I did it in class why can't I do it on my own?".

 

[pnw_diver]

If you think about the difference between Cave and Cavern diving...there is a stated difference. It's easy to understand. I've been asking why there is no formal definition that applies to wreck diving...

Having recently completed the PADI wreck cert, I can say that there was a definition of what the recreational wreck course qualified a student to do: penetrate a wreck within the ambient light zone, no more than 130 linear feet from the surface, where conditions allowed for side-by-side air sharing. I was also trained to evaluate the condition of the wreck and the entry point to determine if entry was advisable.

 

[Dr Wu]

There are in my mind 2 types of wreck dive. The "swim around the outside sticking your head through some hatches on the way". This is the standard wreck dive most people do. It requires NO further training, NO extra equipment and certainly doesn't need any fanciful watered down speciality course to do.

You believe an AOW diver could safely dive the Empress of Ireland with no additional training or equipment?

The U-853?

The Arundo?

 

[Rhone Man]

PS. Good thread.

 

[pnw_diver]

So... I've *heard* that often there is a guided wreck penetration dive as the last dive or two of the basic PADI Wreck Specialty Class, have others heard of this? Why is this the case? Pretty silly if you asked me, especially since alot of the instructors don't have the experience nor training to be doing these dives themselves. Also I think it just encourages wreck penetration by untrained divers, "If I did it in class why can't I do it on my own?".

It's optional. When I took the class, we did a limited penetration on the last training dive (within the limitations of the rec wreck cert). My instructor is an experienced technical wreck diver and instructor. Personally, I came away from the course very clear on what I should and should not attempt.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

At this point I dive and penetrate wrecks whenever possible. I do not however get the chance to do this enough where I would feel ok teaching a penetration beyond the light zone course. I also do ice dives and if things go well next year will get in another course as an assistant this time and a few more dives so that I would be qualified to teach it. Conditions being what they are around here though I would not teach it myself. I'd bring another ice qualified instructor or two to help.

If I were to consider teaching any kind of penetration wreck course I'd first get another 50 or so dives doing that and more training with a technical wreck diver. I do feel that I would have a little edge as the AOW course I teach involves line skills, air share swims along a measured route with standard gear and a long hose, slinging a stage bottle, and non silting kicks. I also include low/no vis and rescue skills that would all carry into a wreck course of that type. I also do line skills in UW Nav and S&R. Buddy skills are strictly enforced. Separation is not an acceptable occurrence in my classes. I teach tough contact and lost line location for low/no vis.

As for swim thrus. They still require IMO extreme care even on "clean" wrecks. When was the last time a diver went thru that particular one? Will entering cause rust to fall and obscure vis? Has anything collapsed or buckled since the last time? All of these need to be considered. As for a wreck course that does not involve penetration? I could see it IF you can guarantee me that a new diver with that card can resist temptation and stay outside. Even so I would still like to see line skills, buoyancy skills, and buddy skills as the primary focus of the course since many OW divers these days have little more than squat when it comes to real skill and knowledge in those areas.

In fact I'd have the same requirements as I do for any of my post OW courses. I'd increase the dive requirement and add MY AOW course but before allowing anyone to even start the class they need to have basic skills down pat. Ie able to do them horizontal in midwater at a minimum. No getting upright to clear a mask. They need basic rescue skills including no mask swim assist, air share no mask, unconscious diver, and support of a diver at the surface.

Of course I'm the guy who teaches my OW students that if a reef swim thru is not big enough for you and your buddy to go thru side by side and is more than a body length to go around and not thru it.

 

[Superlyte27]

So... I've *heard* that often there is a guided wreck penetration dive as the last dive or two of the basic PADI Wreck Specialty Class, have others heard of this? Why is this the case? Pretty silly if you asked me, especially since alot of the instructors don't have the experience nor training to be doing these dives themselves. Also I think it just encourages wreck penetration by untrained divers, "If I did it in class why can't I do it on my own?".

You want to answer this one Azchipka?