Death by Diving

[Jax]

That would be doing violence to the study. When a rider gets strained through a chain link fence they should be eliminated from the study, similarly when a rider's abdomen gets crushed under a truck a helmet is rather irrelevant. The point is that there are sufficient "other" causes of mortality that mask the helmet vs. non-helmet signal unless one confines the study to head injury—associated deaths only.

Thal, the problem is that they (doctors reporting) don't do this. If a guy crashes into a truck that pulled a left in front of him, and his ribcage is crushed and his skull broken, if he is not wearing a helmet, it is a head injury.

That's why that study you quoted talked about reducing head injuries. No argument there, but that isn't the only thing that kills. Head injuries are an easy thing for a doc to point to.

When it comes down to it, helmets will save those who would have died of head injury, but most wrecks are such that the rest of the body is smashed.

 

[DeusVerto]

This thread started with the proffering of the notion that has been an increase in diver fatalities lately. Do we know this to be true? Is it perception or a statistical fact? Seriously, I'm asking because I truly wish to know, not because I want to be a smart-ass.

As far as statistics go, it is true that the highest accident rate for private pilots, for example, is not when they're students, or even right after they're certified. It's about at 90 hours - 50 hours past their minimum 40 hours of flight time to become "licensed". It's when fledgling pilots get confident - and careless.

I have just two rhetorical questions (observations). The YMCA certification I went through in 1975 was FAR more strenuous than the PADI program I took in 1999. In fact, when I became certified at the age of 16 (and therefore much more fit), I found the swimming qualification to be non-trivial, even though I had every swimming skill award the YMCA offered at the time (through and including senior lifesaver). Are we really making sure people can swim before we make them swim with all this gear on? If you lose your fins, can you still make it back to the boat?

Secondly, are diving instructors really putting enough emphasis on the respect this "sport" deserves? Do students graduate with the appropriate level of Fear of (meeting) G-D? This activity can and will kill you if you don't pay attention.

I have never taught a SCUBA course. But I -am- an NRA-certified handgun instructor (Firearms Safety Plus Personal Protection). I don't rely on this to earn a living mind you, so I understand the economic sensitivities of scaring the hell out of your students. I used to incorporate an early-on attitude screening by being quite adamant about the consequences of ignoring the cardinal safety rules - ACCIDENTAL DEATH.

Maybe it's not a question of stupidity? Maybe it's a question of sugar-coating the risks to gain market share?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

For those of you still thinking helmet laws are the way to go, please read the web page linked below;

Easyrider's no nonsense helmet law fact sheet

 

[PfcAJ]

Nothing like an unbiased website to support your position. I like it.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Even a BP/W Manufacturer web site has some truth in it's sales pitch.

If you actually read with a learning and open mind you will see many valid and logical points with regards to the statistics. :shocked2:

 

[cbm32]

"As far as statistics go, it is true that the highest accident rate for private pilots, for example, is not when they're students, or even right after they're certified. It's about at 90 hours - 50 hours past their minimum 40 hours of flight time to become "licensed". It's when fledgling pilots get confident - and careless.'

In reading all of the information I have been able to find on diving deaths, I have as yet to come across one that didn't indicate that the deceased was an experienced diver. Now, I am not sure just what criteria the people writing these reports are using to determine who is an experienced diver and who is not, but on the surface that would seem to support that there may be something similar going on with Diving deaths as with the private pilot deaths.

 

[SNorman]

As a long time motorcyclist from a State that had no helmet law, I can tell you that if you really do your homework on this issue there is not one clear winner in general. If you are the kind of rider that is really cautious, drives no faster than the speed limit and follows all the rules, you may get run over by some car/truck driver who does none of the above.

Without a helmet, I can hear and see my opponents much better, and by traveling faster than everyone else I never have to worry about what's behind me. Also, if you really look at the statistics, helmet use increases vertebra trauma (paralysis) because when the whiplash thing happens there is all that extra weight.

I have been down a number of times, but not as many times as if I always wore a helmet.

Just like diving, there are people riding who should not be riding. They should wear a helmet. If you regularly stop at yield signs when there can not be any traffic in the lane you are yielding to, you do not have the situational awareness to safely operate a motorcycle.

:focus:

If you regularly find yourself with not enough gas to make a proper ascent, you do not have the situational awareness to safely dive.

Yes, we can sit around and debate about whether a helmet is effective or not, but every single racing organization requires helmets and every racer would wear a helmet anyway even if they didn't. See, those guys crash regularly. I've crashed. I'll wear a helmet, thanks

 

[Thalassamania]

Sorry - I'm a bit slow on this. The first study you cited stated in the results

while the AMA report states


I've added the bold to illustrate the apparent conflict.

Do you still not see a conflict?

There is no conflict, they are talking about two different populations. If you wear a helmet you are less likely to die of a head injury, that is without question.

For those of you still thinking helmet laws are the way to go, please read the web page linked below;

Easyrider's no nonsense helmet law fact sheet

I already showed why that "fact sheet" is sheer nonsense. The data in that study also falsifies the hypothesis that you are more likely to get into a fatal accident if you wear a helmet (due to lowered SA).

Thal, the problem is that they (doctors reporting) don't do this. If a guy crashes into a truck that pulled a left in front of him, and his ribcage is crushed and his skull broken, if he is not wearing a helmet, it is a head injury.

That's why that study you quoted talked about reducing head injuries. No argument there, but that isn't the only thing that kills. Head injuries are an easy thing for a doc to point to.

When it comes down to it, helmets will save those who would have died of head injury, but most wrecks are such that the rest of the body is smashed.

Jax,

That is an interesting hypothesis. Do you have any data or analysis to support it?

 

[Tropicalwolf]

This thread started with the proffering of the notion that has been an increase in diver fatalities lately. Do we know this to be true? Is it perception or a statistical fact? Seriously, I'm asking because I truly wish to know, not because I want to be a smart-ass.

No, no "evidence" was presented to support this opinion. The assumption simply is not true. There is no "rise" or "more" deaths in scuba currently. It is observation bias. If you seek information on something (like diver fatalities) you'll find plenty of it...but that does not translate into "legitimate research", what you are more likely to get is "clusters in reporting". Think of it like after a plane crash...the media suddenly reports on every single engine plan malfunction from every podunk airstrip they can find. For the hundreds of thousands of dives done every day, a handful of deaths are negligible.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Yes, we can sit around and debate about whether a helmet is effective or not, but every single racing organization requires helmets and every racer would wear a helmet anyway even if they didn't. See, those guys crash regularly. I've crashed. I'll wear a helmet, thanks

Yes, even car racing where the roll cages are nearly indestructible mandates helmets. By your logic we should all wear helmets in our cars too because all car racers wear helmets.

Thal I do not care if you think that a helmet does not severely limit situational awareness; I hope readers of this off topic tangent will read more than SB for the information to make an individual decision (if they live in a State that still allows individual decisions).