From jacket BC to back plate and wing?

[theod]

I leave my post for a few days and it exploded! Anyway, I've got an opportunity to get a Zeagle Ranger at a good price. Is the Ranger a good way to go for someone like me possibly looking to expand my horizons? Or should I just go with a back plate.

 

[InTheDrink]

I had the nerve to say that InTheDrink was making overall statements that his experience does not give him the experience to make.

His experience only allows this statement;

MY BP/W is easier to dive well in, FOR ME. Jackets I HAVE USED tend to ride up ON ME

Ok, I grant that I should have prefixed my statements with 'In my experience..' rather than making a universal statement. It doesn't at all mean that I'm wrong (although of course I could be) but simply that my experience and the experience of others I know lean towards my statement.

But back to my question which I asked earlier - and which I'm really curious about as perhaps there's something I'm really missing and I mean this genuinely - what do you mean when you say:

"Do you have any proof that a well designed VEST is not more streamlined and does not release air easier than any well designed non-Vest? "

What's the gig with the releasing air??? I don't understand the relevance of this so perhaps I'm missing a trick.

Cheers,
J

 

[InTheDrink]

I leave my post for a few days and it exploded! Anyway, I've got an opportunity to get a Zeagle Ranger at a good price. Is the Ranger a good way to go for someone like me possibly looking to expand my horizons? Or should I just go with a back plate.

Personally I'd just go with a backplate. You're gonna end up there anyway and there's no downside to it (apart from a bit of fiddling to get it correctly adjusted for you but that's healthier than drinking beer)) so I'd cut out the middle step and just go for the BP/W. You will love it if my experience over the last 6 months is anything to go by.

J

 

[Sas]

Saspotato; you accuse me of "asserting incorrect things"

Yes such as saying it is people who are diving dry or with twins.

Then there is your discussion about venting and so on. How do you even know given you have not used a BP/w?

and claim "all the reasons gone over in this thread" are why you think all those BP/W's are better than all those non-BP/W's. Could you please go over exactly which reasons gone over in this thread make all those BP/W's better than all those non-BP/W's?

If this was the first time we were having this discussion then sure I would. But you've been involved in many of these BP/W threads including some I have participated in and you should be well aware of the reasons now.

But the very fact that you assert (despite all the threads you have been involved in and even started) that BP/Ws are for dry divers or for twins, means you clearly haven't been paying any attention at all.

So why would I bother? It goes in one ear and out the other.

could you explain to me why you say I have zero idea what I am talking about? Do you have any proof[ that a well designed VEST is not more streamlined and does not release air easier than any well designed non-Vest?

Do YOU have any proof that a well designed Vest is more streamlined and releases air easier? See, my discussion has been about my experience and how I have found it. Everyone is different... but I've actually used the things I am evaluating. You have not and it shows.

 

[kanonfodr]

I leave my post for a few days and it exploded! Anyway, I've got an opportunity to get a Zeagle Ranger at a good price. Is the Ranger a good way to go for someone like me possibly looking to expand my horizons? Or should I just go with a back plate.

I personally would go straight to BP/W, since it seems that is the direction you wish to go. IMO the Ranger has way too much bladder for most divers using it (44 lbs) in their single tank diving, and being so soft I doubt its stability with doubles. Why make a middle stop when you can see the end already??

Peace,
Greg

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Yes such as saying it is people who are diving dry or with twins.

Then there is your discussion about venting and so on. How do you even know given you have not used a BP/w?

One of the problems in todays web interaction is people who do not use complete sentences. None of the above are even close to complete sentences, so I have to assume the missing words. I do that a lot with your posts so maybe that is why we do not seem to be communicating well.

My best bets;

#1a - You continually say it is only people diving dry or twins that use BP/W's

or

#1b - You continually say that only people who will dive dry or twins should consider BP/W's

or

#1c - You continually say people who dive dry or twins claim their rig is more streamlined than Vests

or many others

next;

#2a - Then there is the fact that you continually bring up ease of venting; what's with that?

or

#2b - What makes you believe that a well designed Vest vents easier than a well designed BP/W?

and the third one would actually be OK if the preceding sentence was a sentence, but since it isn't;

#3 - How do you even know that a well designed Vest has to vent better than a well designed BP/W if you have never used a BP/W?

And the answers are already in this thread, but since you could not comprehend the previous times I have said it I will try again.

I joined this conversation when jgoodstein posted his instructors list, where the first "more streamlined" statement happened. That was what I questioned and I quoted both myself and Herman from a recent BC thread. I quoted Herman because he is one of the gear guru's on SB and on this issue he agrees with me.

I included "ease of venting" in my contributions because other's were talking about BP/W's being easier to dive well in. In my opinion ease of venting goes hand in hand for new divers diving well, like the OP;

So i'm still very new to diving with just over 30 open water dives.

I will say it again;

Since the majority of the leading edge of the Vest BC's bladder is drafting and the entire leading edge of a BP/W's bladder is not drafting I find it implausible that anyone would conclude that a well designed Vest BC is not more streamlined than a well designed BP/W. That difference may be slight but there is no way in my mind that one of the reasons to chose BP/W could be "streamlining" when it is not the most streamlined.

I will say it again but differently;

Since the air is closer to the body with a Vest BC than with a BP/W the body has to move less to get into a venting position with a Vest BC. I do not have to use one to see that; the simple fact that the bladder is closer to the body is all that is necessary to say that a well designed Vest BC will be easier to release air from than a well designed BP/W. For a person with long arms and a full range of upper body motion the difference may only be slight but one criteria for a BC being easy to dive well in is that BC being easy to vent with.

AFAIS, The vast majority of BP/W divers dive dry &/or twins, but I have never said they are the only people who should chose a BP/W. All I have said is that without future dry or twins diving much of the argument for getting BP/W is not in play (exact words below);

If someone is just a typical, average diver the reasons for considering a BP/W are not so pressing, IMHO.

 

[Sas]

1a and 1b are applicable. 1c is not. 2a and 2b are applicable.

As to what people will find more streamlined and easy to vent will depend on their own experience. My experience has been that every BP/W has been superior to every vest BC that I have tried in both streamlining and venting.

You have no experience in BP/Ws. I would suggest you try one before commenting as to how one might experience using them. I don't think any of your claims are valid based on my own experience. My initial response was directed at you because you criticised the OP for so called lack of experience when in fact you have zero experience with BP/Ws.

There is no reason why only people diving dry or with doubles should be the ones to stick to BP/Ws so I am not sure why you even raised it in the first place.

Also it is irrelevant as to what the 'majority' of divers are doing as equipment should be based on individual comfort and need.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Maybe this way will break through?

As to what people will find more streamlined and easy to vent will depend on their own experience. My experience has been that every BP/W has been superior to every vest BC that I have tried in both streamlining and venting.

The streamlining part is such unscientific BS it is just hilarious.

For a take on your venting issues, perhaps you chose badly designed Vests? Or there are some other ideas between the lines at the end.

A BC is more streamlined than another if it cuts through the water easier than the other. In order to say that one BC cuts through the water better than another you need to make measurements. Until someone publishes some verifiable measurements all we have is anecdotal opinion. When someone is just anecdotally opining it is improper to say something like "BP/W's are more streamlined." The Proper thing to say is something like "I have never measured it, but since my body now hangs free below my BC it feels like I am more streamlined" or "I bought a cheesy Vest with not much investigation and when I was a new, overweighted diver it was hard for me to dive in proper trim, but now that I am more experienced, use the proper amount of weight and am forced to horizontal by my rig, I am more streamlined."

You have no experience in BP/Ws. I would suggest you try one before commenting as to how one might experience using them. I don't think any of your claims are valid based on my own experience. My initial response was directed at you because you criticised the OP for so called lack of experience when in fact you have zero experience with BP/Ws.

This is a large part of why this is so entertaining; you continually type things that are completely false, in more than one way; your initial response was post #20, I did not post in this thread until post #22. Your initial response "to me" was because of my posts quoting In-The-Drink, who is not the OP, and technically what I said was in general, not speaking directly to him, but playing with the incomprehensible non-sentence he posted; "I'm pretty sure - anecdotal yes of course - that this is because I am a point to and thru the water, rather than a 45 degree large surface area."

There is no reason why only people diving dry or with doubles should be the ones to stick to BP/Ws so I am not sure why you even raised it in the first place.

There is no reason I have to type this three times in the same thread! This is not what you keep calling it! This is not me saying only dry and twins divers shoud dive BP/W! This is me saying if you are not going to dive dry or twins then you are making the BP/W decision for reasons other than the two reasons that make the most sense to me, since the vast majority of BP/W divers I know of dive dry &/or twins.

If someone is just a typical, average diver the reasons for considering a BP/W are not so pressing, IMHO.

Also it is irrelevant as to what the 'majority' of divers are doing as equipment should be based on individual comfort and need.

The majority of the divers you dive with are diving BP/W, but I'm sure that had no bearing on your use of BP/W what so ever. Right. Why in the world would you not consider the most popular gear. A smart person would look at the people like them, doing the things they like to do, where they will be doing it, the way they like or want to do it.

The OP may very well be right in his consideration of BP/W; I never questioned him considering a BP/W. I simply offered some rebuttal to streamlining as a reason and added that venting from a bladder farther above your body makes you move your body more, all other things being equal.

I personally am not impressed with the design of most modern scuba gear; I believe marketing is taking us backwards with regards to funcionality. I do not know of any well designed Vest BC's currently being made, but there are many good ones being sold cheap on eBay every day. Likewise I have not seen any modern BI BC's that I think are designed well, but The Balance I got from Salvation Army for $20 serves it's purpose; carry slate elegantly.

 

[knowone]

This and the 84m thread make me feel like heading down somewhere and getting narced.

 

[Sas]

The streamlining part is such unscientific BS it is just hilarious.

Could you provide your source for this? Cheers.

For a take on your venting issues, perhaps you chose badly designed Vests? Or there are some other ideas between the lines at the end.

I quoted the list of BCs I had tried already.

A BC is more streamlined than another if it cuts through the water easier than the other. In order to say that one BC cuts through the water better than another you need to make measurements.

Sure. I have assessed all those BCs and BP/Ws I have tried.

Until someone publishes some verifiable measurements all we have is anecdotal opinion.

Exactly. Opinion of what suits one is best when deciding on gear.

When someone is just anecdotally opining it is improper to say something like "BP/W's are more streamlined."

In my experience, I have found them more streamlined. YMMV.

The Proper thing to say is something like "I have never measured it, but since my body now hangs free below my BC it feels like I am more streamlined" or "I bought a cheesy Vest with not much investigation and when I was a new, overweighted diver it was hard for me to dive in proper trim, but now that I am more experienced, use the proper amount of weight and am forced to horizontal by my rig, I am more streamlined."

I said "My experience has been that every BP/W has been superior to every vest BC that I have tried in both streamlining and venting."

This is a true statement. You should note I said 'My experience'.

This is a large part of why this is so entertaining; you continually type things that are completely false, in more than one way; your initial response was post #20, I did not post in this thread until post #22. Your initial response "to me" was because of my posts quoting In-The-Drink, who is not the OP, and technically what I said was in general, not speaking directly to him, but playing with the incomprehensible non-sentence he posted; "I'm pretty sure - anecdotal yes of course - that this is because I am a point to and thru the water, rather than a 45 degree large surface area."

Yes I was referring to my initial response to you. So what I said was not false.

There is no reason I have to type this three times in the same thread! This is not what you keep calling it! This is not me saying only dry and twins divers shoud dive BP/W!

You said "I do not dive doubles or dry, so I have never had a reason to use a BP/W." This infers that you believe doubles and a drysuit are the reasons to use a BP/W.

This is me saying if you are not going to dive dry or twins then you are making the BP/W decision for reasons other than the two reasons that make the most sense to me, since the vast majority of BP/W divers I know of dive dry &/or twins.

Correlation is not causation.

If someone is just a typical, average diver the reasons for considering a BP/W are not so pressing, IMHO.

Why not? Why should an average diver not consider a BP/W?

The majority of the divers you dive with are diving BP/W, but I'm sure that had no bearing on your use of BP/W what so ever. Right. Why in the world would you not consider the most popular gear. A smart person would look at the people like them, doing the things they like to do, where they will be doing it, the way they like or want to do it.

BP/Ws are the most popular out of the people I know who have tried both. BCs are the most popular amongst people who have not tried them that I know. I prefer to listen to people who have had a proper experience with what they are talking about.

The OP may very well be right in his consideration of BP/W; I never questioned him considering a BP/W. I simply offered some rebuttal to streamlining as a reason and added that venting from a bladder farther above your body makes you move your body more, all other things being equal.

I don't think you can comment on this at all. It comes down to individual preference. You are asserting incorrect things if you say that streamlining and venting are going to be better with a BC over a BP/W.

I personally am not impressed with the design of most modern scuba gear;

I suggest you try a BP/W then. I am very impressed with them over the standard BC.