Crush
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A strange sort of binomial distribution? Sort of a low-probability event, but shifted to the right?
[can't help it] There are three kinds of people in the world - those that can do math, and those that can't.
Certification-Which One?
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A strange sort of binomial distribution? Sort of a low-probability event, but shifted to the right?
[can't help it] There are three kinds of people in the world - those that can do math, and those that can't.
Crush
Contributor
When you write "independently," do you mean "without a DM guide but with a buddy" or do you mean "solo?" If you contend that no newly-certified OW diver is capable of diving (1) with a buddy but (2) without a DM present, I say holy $#!+ What good was that course? Just take a scuba experience or something and save a few hundred dollars.
Thal - it only took me reading it once. Was it my instructors or the university? 
With respect to OW divers, instructors can make a difference and agencies can make a difference. I suspect the death statistics will show that all agencies minimally qualified students are similar. I've seen it suggested that those students with bare-bones, agency minimum type training are less likely to continue diving as a sport. Perhaps better training makes for more enjoyment, or maybe those who enjoy the sport seek out better training.
And for mpetryk - there are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't.
With respect to OW divers, instructors can make a difference and agencies can make a difference. I suspect the death statistics will show that all agencies minimally qualified students are similar. I've seen it suggested that those students with bare-bones, agency minimum type training are less likely to continue diving as a sport. Perhaps better training makes for more enjoyment, or maybe those who enjoy the sport seek out better training.
And for mpetryk - there are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't.
What I'm saying is that IMHO a good diver is capable of diving solo in a safe manner. If a diver has the competency level to solo dive, then when he dives with his buddy he is actually capable of giving "real" supprt as part of the buddy team. A freshly certified diver is marginal in this capacity at best, as he/she hasn't had the dive experiance in the variety of adverse conditions to be truley competent. It takes more than a few pool sessions and 5 openwater dives to get to that point, hell they don't even get bouyancy down to an intermediate level for 15-25 dives. Let's not mention that most divers will only dive 2-3 times per year, regardless of how good or bad thier training was. A diver with 25 dives and only 2-3 dives per year is not only not competent, but a danger to the buddy he's diving with.
I hope that clarify my stance on the subject.
"Wow, how far off topic did that take us?"
I have a minor in math and I had to re-read your initial post to understand it
I was impressed with the succinct clarity of his post. Slightly verbose only a couple of times (which must be close to a record).
Almost as impressive as the accuracy of his point of view.
And, a difficult point of view to argue against, well unless you want to take the position that the distribution is actually bimodal. One could argue that, but it is hard to get really worked up over it.
JamesBon92007
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I didn't read the entire thread so please forgive me it this was already covered, but....
I think the number one question for me would be what would I be qualified to do once I received my certification? If it's only being capable of diving to 60 feet with little or no knowledge of decompression tables or computers and no experience shore diving in the local area then I would call the course inadequate. I really don't know how much difference there is between agencies now but as others pointed out it's the instructor that matters. I got certified in '69 by NAUI and felt confident when I completed the course. We were supposedly able to dive to 120 or 130 feet and do decompresson dives and surf entries and exits. Everyone knew how to remove and replace their masks and second stage underwater. One of the exercises was to dive into the pool to all of your equipment and put it on at the bottom of the pool. I think this exercise was very good at acclimating one with one's equipment. Everyone learned how to buddy-breathe and do a free ascent from around 35 feet. We were taught to depend upon ourselves and not our equipment. And we had a lot less equipment back then.
When my wife got certified I interviewed the instructor--he was ex-UDT and had been a commercial diver for many years plus he had been scuba diving for longer than I had. I went through the course with her basically to make sure they didn't leave anything out or teach her something that I didn't agree with. I thought the course was very thorough and was satisfied. The instructor was, once again, NAUI. But if he would have been NASDS or PADI or LA Parks and Recreation or YMCA I don't think that would have mattered to me.
I just don't get this OW certification thing--I think my level was somewhere around what is now called AOW and to me that was the amount of training required. I've been diving with a lot of people over the years and felt that only a few were actually competant. Most I only dived with one time. I can only assume they were all rubber-stamped and given a C-Card and turned loose. Perhaps the instructors figure they'll latch onto some experienced divers as "mentors." Well, we end up being rescue divers instead of mentors. I mean, if I'm going to have to instruct them on how to scuba dive then I may as well start from scratch. At least then I'll know what they do and do not know.
My suggestion to OP: skip the OW and go straight to AOW with an instructor that's willing to do that. Make sure all the OW stuff is not omitted, of course
I think the number one question for me would be what would I be qualified to do once I received my certification? If it's only being capable of diving to 60 feet with little or no knowledge of decompression tables or computers and no experience shore diving in the local area then I would call the course inadequate. I really don't know how much difference there is between agencies now but as others pointed out it's the instructor that matters. I got certified in '69 by NAUI and felt confident when I completed the course. We were supposedly able to dive to 120 or 130 feet and do decompresson dives and surf entries and exits. Everyone knew how to remove and replace their masks and second stage underwater. One of the exercises was to dive into the pool to all of your equipment and put it on at the bottom of the pool. I think this exercise was very good at acclimating one with one's equipment. Everyone learned how to buddy-breathe and do a free ascent from around 35 feet. We were taught to depend upon ourselves and not our equipment. And we had a lot less equipment back then.
When my wife got certified I interviewed the instructor--he was ex-UDT and had been a commercial diver for many years plus he had been scuba diving for longer than I had. I went through the course with her basically to make sure they didn't leave anything out or teach her something that I didn't agree with. I thought the course was very thorough and was satisfied. The instructor was, once again, NAUI. But if he would have been NASDS or PADI or LA Parks and Recreation or YMCA I don't think that would have mattered to me.
I just don't get this OW certification thing--I think my level was somewhere around what is now called AOW and to me that was the amount of training required. I've been diving with a lot of people over the years and felt that only a few were actually competant. Most I only dived with one time. I can only assume they were all rubber-stamped and given a C-Card and turned loose. Perhaps the instructors figure they'll latch onto some experienced divers as "mentors." Well, we end up being rescue divers instead of mentors. I mean, if I'm going to have to instruct them on how to scuba dive then I may as well start from scratch. At least then I'll know what they do and do not know.
My suggestion to OP: skip the OW and go straight to AOW with an instructor that's willing to do that. Make sure all the OW stuff is not omitted, of course
drrich2
Contributor
I would imagine reviewing some threads on this forum could be frustrating for a newbie.
1.) Some say get more dives under your belt before AOW so you're ready to get the most out of it, some think you should dive straight into AOW (after all, if OW is so pathetic...), and some think OW and lots of diving with mentoring buddies is all you need & the main use of AOW is getting paranoid dive boat op.s to let you go over 60 feet, which usually doesn't come up anyway.
2.) A competently trained OW diver either a.) Got certified, having demonstrated each skill and passed the academics test, or b.) Can do boat dives in good conditions without a dive master handling the navigation (and why using the 'baby sitter' (as I've seen it condescendingly put) bothers some people so much escapes me to this day), or c.) Can handle turbulent shore entries with poor visibility and fairly large waves coming in, or d.) Can perform rescue interventions for the buddy at roughly the level of a certified Rescue diver, or e.) Can safely dive solo, without relying on a buddy.
I'm not sure whether we'd need a poll or a dart board to answer some of the questions...
Richard.
1.) Some say get more dives under your belt before AOW so you're ready to get the most out of it, some think you should dive straight into AOW (after all, if OW is so pathetic...), and some think OW and lots of diving with mentoring buddies is all you need & the main use of AOW is getting paranoid dive boat op.s to let you go over 60 feet, which usually doesn't come up anyway.
2.) A competently trained OW diver either a.) Got certified, having demonstrated each skill and passed the academics test, or b.) Can do boat dives in good conditions without a dive master handling the navigation (and why using the 'baby sitter' (as I've seen it condescendingly put) bothers some people so much escapes me to this day), or c.) Can handle turbulent shore entries with poor visibility and fairly large waves coming in, or d.) Can perform rescue interventions for the buddy at roughly the level of a certified Rescue diver, or e.) Can safely dive solo, without relying on a buddy.
I'm not sure whether we'd need a poll or a dart board to answer some of the questions...
Richard.
Crush
Contributor
First off, I know this will never happen.
In Alberta we have province-wide standardized testing at grades 3, 6, and 9. The results are made public.
Wouldn't it be nice to see how your LDS graduates do at some agreed-to basic skills compared to other places? Oh, sure, no-one would ever agree on what those skills should be, but that is really not the point since this will never happen. I'd love to see academic scores lined up by shop and agency, in addition to swim times, scuba bail-out and snorkel bail-out times, pool time (total), OW dives (number and time). CESA depths perhaps? Also, compare the number of divers (total and percent) that successfully complete OW, as well as those that go on to do AOW, SRD, MD, etc..
Publishing such statistics might make some shop owners adopt less of a certification-mill attitude and more of a mentoring attitude.
But it will never happen.
In Alberta we have province-wide standardized testing at grades 3, 6, and 9. The results are made public.
Wouldn't it be nice to see how your LDS graduates do at some agreed-to basic skills compared to other places? Oh, sure, no-one would ever agree on what those skills should be, but that is really not the point since this will never happen. I'd love to see academic scores lined up by shop and agency, in addition to swim times, scuba bail-out and snorkel bail-out times, pool time (total), OW dives (number and time). CESA depths perhaps? Also, compare the number of divers (total and percent) that successfully complete OW, as well as those that go on to do AOW, SRD, MD, etc..
Publishing such statistics might make some shop owners adopt less of a certification-mill attitude and more of a mentoring attitude.
But it will never happen.
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Naw, too much will rely on style points ... you know: "that's an average of 3.2 out of a possible 10, and now the PADI judges ... wow, 3 perfect tens!"
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