The State of Diving

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ScubaBoard has made me aware of GUE and UTD's offerings, both of which appear significantly more expensive than the NAUI/PADI/TDI courses and both of which appear to require specific gear choices.

You get what you pay for. And yes, it would be nice if there was something close without the gear requirements. That could be the role of the 'peak performance buoyancy' class, but it's too short in its current incarnation.

The vast majority of the rec divers that I've asked if they could show me their back-kick had never heard of such a thing, and barring that, I'm not sure how anyone could *not* use their hands for maneuvering.

If you can't find one of those backplate-wearing-long-hose-smoking-classic-fins-sporting diver on a California boat, find an old photographer. My experience has been that most photographers end up developing some kind of back kick sooner or later out of necessity.
 
How fast y'all backkicking? Cause even in my jets I'm not that fast..... A photographer who figured out how to backkick is about the speed I go, I figured it out in a similar way, not a "required skill" but hey I'm back kicking, that's useful with my camera or when hovering with my light staring into a tiny hole at some critter....
 
I have only read a bit of this entire thread, but what I can see from the first few pages of posts is that some people on SB think that most divers are happy not knowing how to dive....that is complete BS IMO.

I for one am furious that I wasn't taught how to dive until I was fortuitously turned on to more advanced diving skill (Thanks TS&M). I was never shown what good diving was, or what good gear was. Instead i was sold flash and BS, and I was told that only "technical divers" dove the more advanced gear or had those better skills. What Rubbish.

I am now taking every step possible to correct my most sever deficiencies. And as far as money is concerned. I spend something like 400 dollars on my open water course. But really, I didnt learn how to dive in my OW course at all. All I got for that 400 dollars was a "here, stick this in your mouth and breath while kneeling here at the bottom." I want taught to fin or how to save myself. I wasn't taught how to control my buoyancy or how to even contemplate going further in the sport. I was taught how to get my next PADI BS C-card though.

Anyone who says that dive requirements shouldn't be raised upset me, because those are the same people that prevented me from the chance to learn how to be a diver from the beginning and not thousands of dollars of worthless classes and refreshers later.
 
To those of you who find you are sculling when you are distracted . . . As my Fundamentals instructor told me, sculling (unless it has simply become an ingrained habit) is almost always a sign of instability. If you use the fact that you are sculling as INFORMATION, you can figure out what the issue is that you are trying to correct with your hands -- correct it another way, and the hand movements will go away.

Often, sculling is an attempt to avoid rolling onto one's side. If one's BC doesn't fit well, isn't tightened down sufficiently, and lacks a plastic plate component to stabilize the tank, the tank can often be out of position to one side or the other, creating a definite tendency to turn turtle. This is pretty easy to manage with your fins, if your fins are stiff enough to take a good "bite" out of the water, but in my observation of OW students, it's difficult to learn to control this roll with split fins. Also, to stabilize oneself with fins requires that the fins be separated a bit -- if you tend to keep your feet together, it will be harder to do.

Sculling can also be an attempt to fight either being light or being negative, and again, if you're trying to push DOWN, you're fighting a tendency to sink; if you're trying to push UP, you're fighting a tendency to rise.

Hand swimming can be countered by either making a conscious effort to hold your hands together, or sometimes carrying a light will help, as having to keep the light on what you are looking at will effectively prevent wild hand motions :)

For the back kick: The best way to learn it is from someone who knows how it's done. But you can work on it yourself in a pool. Study the videos of back kicking that are on You Tube (5thD-X videos). The motion is an extension of the knees with the soles of the feet facing each other, followed by a "scooping" motion of the top of the feet out to the side. Get in a pool with a bathing suit, no fins. Play with this motion until you begin to feel yourself move backwards. (I've seen students get this in less than five minutes.) Then start swimming laps backwards until it's pretty effortless to produce the necessary motion.

Now get in the pool with fins (still on the surface) and do the same thing, until you can swim a full lap backwards without losing the motion.

Now put on scuba gear and go diving, and try it -- I think you'll be pleasantly surprised! (One caveat: back kicking is extremely trim-dependent. If you are feet up, you'll pull yourself back and UP (the shrimp dance). If you are feet down, you'll kick up silt and you won't go much of anywhere.)
 
back kicking is extremely trim-dependent. If you are feet up, you'll pull yourself back and UP (the shrimp dance)

Ah hah! Yeah, that's what was happening to me. I felt like that swinging-boat amusement-park ride.

Sorry for hijack.
 
Unfortunately, as far as I know, these techniques aren't taught in most OW classes. Looking at course descriptions in my area, I only see it in TDI's Intro Tech description, which is unlikely to appeal to general recreational divers. ScubaBoard has made me aware of GUE and UTD's offerings, both of which appear significantly more expensive than the NAUI/PADI/TDI courses and both of which appear to require specific gear choices.

It only seems more expensive, because the up front number is slightly higher. You really need to sit down and analyze what you pay for and what you get, and in the end you see that the value is much much higher in the "more expensive" courses. A course that teaches you nothing is worthless and infinitely expensive at any price.

Plus, the gear that you start out with can support you all the way up to the most advanced levels (you just need to add here and there as opposed to completely replacing).
 
Unfortunately, as far as I know, these techniques aren't taught in most OW classes. Looking at course descriptions in my area, I only see it in TDI's Intro Tech description, which is unlikely to appeal to general recreational divers. ScubaBoard has made me aware of GUE and UTD's offerings, both of which appear significantly more expensive than the NAUI/PADI/TDI courses and both of which appear to require specific gear choices.

I'm extremely inexperienced, so I'm likely to be wrong on the facts, but those are my impressions. The vast majority of the rec divers that I've asked if they could show me their back-kick had never heard of such a thing, and barring that, I'm not sure how anyone could *not* use their hands for maneuvering.

Right, that's why I said, 'A handful of classes'. Not everyone has the inclination/time/cash/whatever to take those classes, though, which is well and groovy. That's where dive clubs come in. Mine back home in NY has a very diverse membership, ranging from twice-a-year divers to local wreck divers, photographers and cave divers. The more experienced folks were absolutely wonderful about sharing their knowledge with the rest of us.
 
It only seems more expensive, because the up front number is slightly higher. You really need to sit down and analyze what you pay for and what you get, and in the end you see that the value is much much higher in the "more expensive" courses. A course that teaches you nothing is worthless and infinitely expensive at any price.

Plus, the gear that you start out with can support you all the way up to the most advanced levels (you just need to add here and there as opposed to completely replacing).

I don't disagree with any of that, but when I thought "I should learn to dive", I didn't walk around local places and find a GUE shop that offered me a BP/W. I found NAUI, PADI and SDI shops that offered me BCs with integrated weights. So, right after OW, most of my friends had large amounts of gear that was incompatible with basically no resale value. The scalability of the gear that they already didn't buy is no longer a real selling point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the true cost of GUE-F to the "50-100 dive rec diver" (gear+training) seems to be about $1500-$2000. Good training costs good money, and I don't have a problem with that, but if the money's not there, flopping around in the water with 5thdx YouTube videos seems like the only option.

On a personal level, I'm hoping to take primer, essentials or fundies at some point in the next year, once I can find the money. However, my gear setup is currently "stuff I found on craigslist for $20 and SB DIYers helped me fix", and there's very little DIR-style gear being sold significantly below value (presumably because people buying that sort of gear have passed the dropout point).
 
the title of the thread can also read the state of snorkeling just as easy.
I was ran over, finned in the head by at least thirty inexperienced snorkelers today. it got so bad that I almost got to the point of telling a couple of people off when one of them finned me in the face and knocked my mask off but I kept my cool.

I don't know if it is more of poor instruction or just being inconsiderate of other fellow snorkelers or maybe a combination of both.

I have to rant a little about the idiot boater who almost ran over me:mad:

and I was floating a dive marker less than 10 feet away from me:shakehead:

This was at the Destin Jetties BTW.
 
the title of the thread can also read the state of snorkeling just as easy.
I was ran over, finned in the head by at least thirty inexperienced snorkelers today. it got so bad that I almost got to the point of telling a couple of people off when one of them finned me in the face and knocked my mask off but I kept my cool.

I don't know if it is more of poor instruction or just being inconsiderate of other fellow snorkelers or maybe a combination of both.

I have to rant a little about the idiot boater who almost ran over me:mad:

and I was floating a dive marker less than 10 feet away from me:shakehead:

This was at the Destin Jetties BTW.

Don't snorkel with 10 year old snobs... Problem fixed. :D
 

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