instructor course review - did you know...

[MXGratefulDiver]

Yep, just making sure. So someone who has no designs on being an instructor signs up for an instructor course, and is not happy about it. Hmmmm.

And that same someone has little desire to engage in any further development on a diver level, such as continuing education & specialty courses, that would directly help make him a better, more educated, and possibly safer diver. Hmmmmm

Just very interesting, how that path was chosen. Perhaps another sport might fit better with the decision making process.

Wow ... that's some pretty pathetic comments.

The OP was "sold" a course ... obviously without full and complete information about what he was buying. The person who sold him that course did a great job with the selling ... and a piss poor job of fully disclosing the nature of the product he was selling.

I see it happen all the time. People get into OW, get all excited about scuba, and because they barely know anything and trust their instructor, they become easy marks for a future sale. At 60 dives they become DM's ... most with barely adequate skills to take care of themselves underwater and no knowledge whatsoever except what they read in their class manuals. At 100 dives they become instructors ... all too often with no real comprehension of what it is they're teaching except to parrot what they've been told to say.

And you, apparently, think that's a GOOD system? Pathetic.

The FIRST thing any responsible instructor is going to ask when selling a class is "What are your goals? Why do you want to take this class?" Selling a pro level class without asking those questions borders on dishonest, and crosses the line of ethical.

Not to pick on PADI here ... most agencies are the same ... they don't teach that part. They don't ask you to be responsible with your sales pitches. They just expect you to be aggressive with them.

To the OP ... what IS your goal? If it's to become a better diver, consider something like NAUI's Master Diver or UTD's Essentials. If it's to teach, well ... OK ... once you've completed your IDC (or if you've already completed it), then throttle back a bit and see if there are instructors out there ... ones you can TRUST, and ones who can TEACH you something ... who would like some help with classes. Take a year or so to just learn how to teach, learn how to perfect your skills, before you take on trying to teach others. Take it slow. Get out and dive as often as possible outside a classroom. Find a good mentor who's in it for the diving, and just dive ... the ocean's a classroom unto itself.

Slow down ... and for God's sakes, don't just swallow some sales pitch from some instructor who tells you you're "a natural" ... you now know that line's part of the instructor training. To the agencies, everyone's "a natural" ... at least until after you've paid your money for the next class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

One key atttribute in a successful instructor is the ability to market, whether it is marketing classes, trips or gear. To view it as an exercise requiring you to earn points for your "selling abilities" does not do it justice. Consider how you might actually get students to come take your classes, or continue to take your classes, or travel with you, if you don't know how to market well.

One key attribute to a successful instructor is the ability to teach. Another is the ability to dive. Selling comes well below those attributes on the priority scale.

If you develop a reputation as someone who can teach ... who can make classes both comprehensive and fun ... who can lead by example ... you won't HAVE to sell. People will come to you.

I never advertised ... never sold products ... never even sold a con-ed class. I just tried to teach a good, thorough class. My students did all my selling for me. A year ago I was teaching so much I was burning out on it ... I simply couldn't keep up. Not a single one of those students came to me because of my marketing skills. They came to me because I knew how to dive, and knew how to teach them what I knew. They got sent to me from former students who were happy with the product I had sold them.

Works like that with anything ... if you offer quality and value, you don't need marketing skills ... your customers will sell your product for you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ditch-diver]

I've also been teaching for years, like Thal without ever having to push sales. I have always talked about gear, open and honestly. I still get calls from people that I taught 20 years ago asking my opinions on gear because they know I'll be brutally honest.

Whether it is a conflict to push sales is very simple. If you only push brands your store sells..., and if there (for whatever reason) is some piece of equipment better suited for a given student at another shop would you send them there or 'make do' with what the store sells where you teach.

Don't ask me for an example of what gear, or that it'll never happen. If you are only pushing what you sell, that is an issue.

Instructing SCUBA is not a business, it is teaching people to dive. Owning or working in a dive shop is a business. The two are not necessarily mutually inclusive

 

[Walter]

I wonder what dive courses used to be like when the YMCA used to certify. I think that was the only agency that wasn't a private, for-profit business in North America. I could be wrong, but I can't think of any today. The UK has the BSAC (British Sub Aqua Club). I'm not sure if they're still a non-profit club or if they're out to make money now.

SEI is very similar to YMCA of old. Standards are almost identical (they've been beefed up in a few areas) and it's a non-profit. The biggest difference is all the folks in charge are instructors or above.

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

Sorry for your less than good experience, hoever, I strongly encourage you to track a course for furthering your education as a diver. There is no valid reason to stop learning, just about in any aspect of life, but even more so when we are talking about death defying experiences such as scuba.

I hope to see you back in a program of your choosing soon!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

SEI is very similar to YMCA of old. Standards are almost identical (they've been beefed up in a few areas) and it's a non-profit. The biggest difference is all the folks in charge are instructors or above.

And they are all actively teaching, not sitting in offices.

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

C'mon boys, easy on the bashing, it wasn't the agency that steered this poster wrong, it was the dive center he was working with.

There are plusses and minusses to every agency, but it is working together in a spirit of constructive harmony that will help build, grown and sustain the diving industry on all levels.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

C'mon boys, easy on the bashing, it wasn't the agency that steered this poster wrong, it was the dive center he was working with.

I think it was a mindset that believes ...

One key atttribute in a successful instructor is the ability to market, whether it is marketing classes, trips or gear. To view it as an exercise requiring you to earn points for your "selling abilities" does not do it justice. Consider how you might actually get students to come take your classes, or continue to take your classes, or travel with you, if you don't know how to market well.

TEACHING DIVING IS A BUSINESS,if you cannot accept that then maybe being an instructor is not what you truly want to be.
To be a successful instructor you have to market yourself,courses and gear.

... not necessarily because these sentiments are wrong ... but because they should not be the priority. But the intimate relationship between dive shop, instructor and agency usually makes sales the priority ... even when it's to the detriment of the consumer.

There is an inherent conflict of interest between the goals of the dive shop and those of the instructor. When an agency ties its interests to the shop, rather than the instructor, they make it more difficult for the instructor to provide a quality education ... because quality costs money, and increasing expenses is not in the shop's best interest. Therefore, because of the incestuous relationship between agency and shop, the instructor is forced to place the priorities of the shop above the needs of the student.

What this usually results in is exactly what we see here ... selling someone something you KNOW they don't need. I don't believe for a minute that the person who sold this instructor class thought he was doing anything unethical ... he was simply doing what his agency taught him to do.

There are plusses and minusses to every agency, but it is working together in a spirit of constructive harmony that will help build, grown and sustain the diving industry on all levels.

The best way to grow the industry is to produce divers who are confident with their skills, provide them equipment at affordable prices, and opportunities to enjoy the activity without feeling like someone ripped them off. At all levels ... from equipment manufacturers pushing MAP to agencies setting up tiered pricing based on cert numbers to shops pushing con-ed classes people are clearly not ready for ... the diving industry has become its own worst enemy when it comes to growth.

You can't "grow" an industry by making people feel ripped off ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lobstah]

it wasn't the agency that steered this poster wrong, it was the dive center he was working with

Riiiiiiight. And we all know that agencies are very oblivious to how their courses are being sold. If they knew, they would for sure change the standards, no?

 

[oly5050user]

I've also been teaching for years, like Thal without ever having to push sales. I have always talked about gear, open and honestly. I still get calls from people that I taught 20 years ago asking my opinions on gear because they know I'll be brutally honest.

Whether it is a conflict to push sales is very simple. If you only push brands your store sells..., and if there (for whatever reason) is some piece of equipment better suited for a given student at another shop would you send them there or 'make do' with what the store sells where you teach.

Don't ask me for an example of what gear, or that it'll never happen. If you are only pushing what you sell, that is an issue.

Instructing SCUBA is not a business, it is teaching people to dive. Owning or working in a dive shop is a business. The two are not necessarily mutually inclusive

instructing scuba is a business.If you treat it as a hobby,then that is your choice.I have no problems describing benefits and features of poducts and have student make their choice.How many classes a year do you teach?How many people you teach a year? If you deal with 60-100+ students a year then I will call it a business.Deal with 5-10 students a year I call it a hobby.There is no conflict here to push sales.The store I owned and the one I currently teach at does not.Instructors job is to describe benefit/features of gear and have student make their own decisions.As to pushing brands that the store sells,what is the issue with that? Does a Ford dealer send a customer to Chevy? The facility I currently teach out of deals with ScubaPro-Sherwood-Oceanic-Dive Rite,among others..We have a second store in Brooklyn that handles US Divers.So there is a good choice.Been an instructor since 1971 with different agencies,so I know its not just a PADI agency thing to talk ownership of gear to students.A good instructor with any agency should inform students on what is available to them.