Take the Nitrox Anti-Fatigue Challenge and post your results here

[Sas]

I'm glad you're giving this some thought. If you can't find two tanks that nearly identical then have them filled and do your analysis while the tanks themselves are masked in some way, such as wrapping them in a blanket or something.

Yea I'd have to word up the dive shop about that. And get them to present them with just the valves sticking out

Whilst I love experiments (even unscientific ones, like this one), I think yea, it would have to be in a tank as there is no way I could do identical dives locally, given how variable the weather conditions could be. The only option would be in shallow, protected areas, but I doubt I would get any difference diving <10m.

You might be interested to know that DAN International does experiments in Nemo 33. Something like that, would be cool.

 

[Chris12day]

1. The original post described your "Double Blind" scientific test. It was a subjective test at best.

2. Scubaflier suggested that the test was simple and could be done with measuring oxygen levels by a "research scientist". I stated that it may be one factor, not the "factor" or possibly the only factor.

3. Thalassamania is correct about the study you proposed.

4. Nilsdiver is correct, a lot of factors need to be taken into consideration. He highlighted only a few.

5. VERY basic research only one variable is isolated and changed at a time. Almost all research is actually done where multiple variables are changed in each experiment! It is very difficult to isolate a single variable in the real world. We do what is called a Design of Experiments (DOE) where we are able to look at multiple variables and multiple results all at the same time. That is what real scientist do. Let me give you a very easy example. Let say you have 5 variables and 2 results. How many experiments would you need to run assuming no duplicates? Ten....try 32. So if you increase the number of results, replicates, center points, etc.....changing a single factor is not practical.....In SCUBA terms: divers, age, physical activity, depth, previous dives, oxygen level in tank, temperature, hydration of diver, etc.

6. A scientific study could be performed, but not as simplistic as you make it out to be or done by a biased individual.

Sorry

 

[idocsteve]

1. The original post described your "Double Blind" scientific test. It was a subjective test at best.

At best it's an informal study that might provide an interesting pattern in regards to whether or not when divers say they feel better after diving Nitrox, they maintain that same consistency when they don't know what gas they were breathing during the dive.

2. Scubaflier suggested that the test was simple and could be done with measuring oxygen levels by a "research scientist". I stated that it may be one factor, not the "factor" or possibly the only factor.

Measuring oxygen levels in the blood says nothing about a diver's fatigue level.

3. Thalassamania is correct about the study you proposed.

Saying another diver is correct without providing any supporting facts is saying nothing more than "I agree with that other guy but I am not saying why".

4. Nilsdiver is correct, a lot of factors need to be taken into consideration. He highlighted only a few.

See above response.

5. In SCUBA terms: divers, age, physical activity, depth, previous dives, oxygen level in tank, temperature, hydration of diver, etc.

If you've got a bunch of divers, each doing 2 dives with different breathing gases (which is unknown to them at the time they breath it), and every single one of them ultimately reports less fatigue when diving the Nitrox tank, a pattern forms...and that can be taken a bit more seriously than the ScubaBoard member who posts that they "feel better after diving Nitrox".

6. A scientific study could be performed, but not as simplistic as you make it out to be or done by a biased individual.

Yes, that's been said...my proposed experiement lacks strict controls and can only hope to approach a rigid scientific study under which conditions could be controlled using some sort of confined tank. Differences between divers including age, physical activity, previousl dives, hydration, experience ARE already controlled in the experiment as I outlined it because the same diver is doing two different dives, all of those "diver specific" factors are present in both "test runs"

 

[Chris12day]

Let me put in terms of your experience.

1, I have a set of patients with identical eye problems.

2. I give all the patients the same "medication".

3. All of the patients claim their eye is better.

4. The medication was actually a drug in half the cases and a placebo in the others.

5. The results are....no result....

Why?

It is no better than the placebo.


If however you have looked at other factors (I am not an eye doc so I am making them up) vision, pressure, light sensitivity, etc., then an objective person looking at the data and the results could group the test subjects' based on the experimental results. Once the data and grouping had been completed, then the test subjects actual "medication" would be released and compared to the findings of the experiments. Finally, a conclusion could be made, not before.

Now, if you begin to include dosages, ages, progression of disease, etc., you now have to include these in the study. A DOE......

I hope this helps

 

[Bob DBF]

I do not consider myself crazy regardless of the anecdotal data you might run across however, I am not about to dive with a tank I have no idea what it has in it. A double blind study might have a few ethical questions to answer as well.

One of the symptoms of DCS/DCI is fatigue. Assuming that Nitrox actually reduces nitrogen in the body, and the effects of DCI/DCS are reduced and therefore fatigue, being a symptom, might also be reduced.

Anecdotantly I have found that using Nitrox leaves me in better condition after lobster diving than I had been previously (15 - 19 dives over a 3 day trip). Also my buddy does not cramp in his legs like he did before nitrox.

Bob

 

[TSandM]

I don't think there is any problem with trying to do this, as long as we realize that the results are unlikely to have scientific rigor unless the dives are done carefully and the sample size becomes quite large -- and in particular, the same diver ought to do this a number of times under different (but pair-matched) circumstances.

I'd be willing to participate, but I hate the way I feel after I dive air . . .

 

[idocsteve]

Let me put in terms of your experience.

1, I have a set of patients with identical eye problems.

2. I give all the patients the same "medication".

3. All of the patients claim their eye is better.

4. The medication was actually a drug in half the cases and a placebo in the others.

5. The results are....no result....

Why?

It is no better than the placebo.

Well, no...

In your scenario there is some sort of flaw in the test because every single patient did better on the placebo.

If a large enough test group is used, 100% success of a placebo is a statistical impossibility.

 

[mongodives]

After 1 dive who notices fatigue? Its after multiple dives racking up some serious nitrogen saturation that you feel it.
2 diver's do 3 1hr dives with average of 50fsw 1 air 1 EAN, who's gonna feel worse? All of us who have done 3-5 dives a day on air and EAN know who's going to feel worse for wear.

 

[idocsteve]

After 1 dive who notices fatigue? Its after multiple dives racking up some serious nitrogen saturation that you feel it.
2 diver's do 3 1hr dives with average of 50fsw 1 air 1 EAN, who's gonna feel worse? All of us who have done 3-5 dives a day on air and EAN know who's going to feel worse for wear.

This thread isn't about what whether you think Nitrox reduces post dive fatigue.

It's about proving it.

 

[driftwood]

Identical tanks, not a problem. Simply cover the tanks in spandex. The diver verifies the O2 in both tanks, a second person takes them out of sight and leaves, then a third person covers them for return by the second person.

Identical dive conditions required for a statically valid study? Not a problem, I know of two places that are both big enough and deep enough.