Diving Education Today

[Jim Lapenta]

But giving it a try is not growth. Growth is getting divers trained to the point that they want to continue diving. I think that many are so poorly trained that they think they HAVE TO HAVE a Dm in the water with them. And sadly they are correct. That's why they only dive where such hand holding is available. If they were trained to a higher degree they would have the ability, skills, and CONFIDENCE to actually become divers as opposed to underwater tourists. These people do not support the industry to any real degree unless it is the tourism part of it.

If they did they would be buying their own gear and taking it with them. And they would be diving at home as well. Their skills would be better which is better for the environment. The cost to have a dive op at a resort would be less since the resort would not need to maintain as much gear. We would also have less divers doing these damn trust me dives that have gotten a number of people killed and most likely scared the crap out of others that we don't hear about. And they would continue to dive and expand their knowledge and interests which would result in them needing more training. The current climate supports resorts and airlines. The LDS, Instructors, and Equipment Manufacturers have taken a back seat thanks to the wham bam, thank ya mam approach that has poisoned the sport and turned it into not much more than a novelty for many. And novelties soon die out for lack of real interest and support. And if we don't turn things around people will have to know how to service their own regs, own a compressor or group buy one, and wonder why the LDS closed up. DIVE LOCAL! DIVE OFTEN! BE A REAL DIVER!

 

[mdb]

Educated divers encourage others to dive. Those who have no real skills drop out.

 

[rstofer]

But giving it a try is not growth. Growth is getting divers trained to the point that they want to continue diving. I think that many are so poorly trained that they think they HAVE TO HAVE a Dm in the water with them. And sadly they are correct. That's why they only dive where such hand holding is available. If they were trained to a higher degree they would have the ability, skills, and CONFIDENCE to actually become divers as opposed to underwater tourists. These people do not support the industry to any real degree unless it is the tourism part of it.

But all the training you suggest is already available! It's all over the place. Sure, OW might be a little light (I'm not saying it is unsafe!) but AOW, specialties, Rescue and even more advanced classes are all around.

If you want to keep new divers diving, make them feel included. The LDSs sure don't care about them after the first big sale. The instructors aren't making any calls. Heck, we have people saying they shouldn't take AOW right away and we have others saying not to take it at all.

Let's all get on the same page, people! If the education sucks, offer more. And do it BEFORE the new divers scare themselves silly in local water. Because one bad experience is all it takes to walk away from diving. There are plenty of other hobbies around.

Let's give up on this mentor thing. First of all, a wide disparity in diving skill doesn't necessarily help the new diver. It just gets them in over their heads a lot deeper. The other side of it: why would anybody want to dive with a new diver when they already have an outstanding dive buddy capable of making more advanced dives. This mentoring thing just doesn't work.

Furthermore, some people are just shy. They don't like meeting new people and sharing death defying moments together. They might be willing to dive in a controlled (instructed) group where one talented instructor is teaching them the ropes.

Consider for a moment that a new diver might just consider scuba diving a high risk sport. Why in the world would they trust their life to a 'mentor' they just met? Just because the guy says he has a card? Nonsense. What they want is more time with an instructor.

When I started diving, i KNEW that I didn't belong in the ocean. It was not my natural environment and I was NOT at the top of the food chain. I KNEW that it was a high risk endeavor, So I wanted to spend as much time with an instructor as I could. After I finished Rescue, I thought I just might be able to survive.

Check out this thread:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/315150-beginners-mind.html

Reg is a pretty bright guy and a very serious student. He got his ass kicked. It's a wonder he came back for more. Lesser people would just walk away. Or save it for somewhere warm and wonderful.

Thal is right, you know! It takes about 100 hours and a bunch of dives to get this thing under control. OW provides the minimum (others argue less than minimum) so it's up to the instructors to SELL additional training. Before the divers walk away.

Consider OW as 25 of the 100 hours (optimistic). It's up to you guys (the instructors) to fill in the rest.

Richard

 

[acwest]

..Or an 'imperial' you (any generic instructor happening by) but not specifically me.
Richard

That would be the 'you' I meant in this case. Sort of a hypothetical 'you' that may or may not actually include you(Richard), either now or in the future.

 

[DCBC]

So, has anything in the 40 pages of this thread shed any more light on your original questions/concerns?

Yes. It seems that the majority of people reflect upon the training they received as an adequate start, regardless of how good or poor that training may have been. I find this interesting.

I also wonder how much of the change in training standards are just the natural refinement that tends to happen to most activities. In the beginning not much is known, so everything is planned and trained for. But, after experience is gained and new methods/equipment developed, refinements to training and necessary skills are often made. Maybe one of you Ol' Timers can touch on that specifically.

I think that the training requirements for most sporting activities have increased over the years (at least in Canada). This is true in recreational flying, mountaineering and even hunting. With diving training (from a certification perspective) it's not about the statistics, but the money. People can close their eyes to this is they like, but it doesn't change reality.

 

[DCBC]

So, there really isn't a problem here then. You can run the kind of classes that you want to run and you can get all the students that you want.

Those who aren't interested have another option as well.

Is there really anything wrong with this system?

I obviously think so. Like you said, with a higher degree of training some accidents could be prevented; although some accidents will still occur.

 

[BDSC]

But giving it a try is not growth.

But where does growth start? It starts with "giving it a try". The more people that give it a try, the bigger the pool of people who may or may not stick with it. It really is a numbers game isn't it.

Most all of my friends know I love diving. For the most part, 4 out of my 6 weeks of vacation are spent doing the vacation diver thing. I'm already booked for Bonaire and Little Cayman next year. So when we get into a conversation about my travels and diving, I never fail to encourage them to learn to dive and get it on a trip. What are the three questions almost always asked?

1. Is it hard to learn?
2. How long does it take?
3. How much does it cost?

Now imagine that the standard training class was something like the Scripps Model Course that Thal uses. So I tell them, "Well, I don't know that it's hard but it is certainly demanding. It will take about 100 hours spread over 12 to 13 weeks and the cost is X." (Don't know the cost but it's got to be a lot more I would think than the std cost of a typical OW course)

Or I can tell them this. "It's not really that hard and it can be done over a couple of weeks or even a weekend and it runs about $350 to $400. You know Sally/John don't you? They passed the class and if they can do it, anybody can. "

What is going to appeal to the vast majority of the people? No doubt answer #2. If the only answer was #1, for the most part the industry would only be a fraction of what it is now. No doubt no matter what the answer is, some people just aren't interested and will never sign up. But of those people that do become interested, how many would follow through with classes if their only option was the 100 hour course. I think very very few.

Now would the final product of the Scripps Model Course be a better product? Absolutely! Would that diver have more/better skills and feel more confident in the water than the "weekend warrior" class? No doubt about it! Would that diver likely continue with diving? I certainly would think so.

I look at it this way. Those folks that have developed an interest in diving and would be willing to sign up for Thal's type of course would also be willing to sign up for the easier course. You don't lose those people because the standards are to low/easy. They don't say, "Well, that sounds too easy and isn't enough of a challenge". But what you would lose out on are a great many people who just aren't sure if diving is for them or not. After all, you have to give it a try to see if it's for you. Those folks may be willing to shell out a few hundred bucks and a couple of weeks to see if it's some thing they are really interested in. Some of them will, of course, drop by the wayside and never continue on. Not because of the training but because diving was just a passing fad or just wasn't for them. But some will be hooked and get more training, buy equipment, take trips, dive local, and overall support the industry.

Like I said, it's a numbers game. The more people you can get interested in signing up and taking the course, the greater the pool of people you have to continue on with the sport/hobby.

I think that many are so poorly trained that they think they HAVE TO HAVE a Dm in the water with them. And sadly they are correct..

I agree that there are many poorly trained divers coming out of OW classes. I've been on the boat with some. But there are also a lot of well trained divers (within the scope of their training) coming out of OW classes who don't need or want their hands held. I've also been on the boat with those folks. So why the difference? I think it's one of two thing. On a smaller scale, some people just don't take to diving. On a larger scale, I think it may very well be the quality of their instruction and by that I am talking about their instructor and not the course material.

What was it someone said on here, "You can now go from zero to hero in 60 dives." I don't know what the minimum is from going to just certified to being an instructor but is it easier to become an instructor now than 20 or 30 years ago? Maybe the industry has way to many inferior instructors that have no business being in that role and they are turning out a crappy product. Perhaps that's why so many people come out of classes needing their hands held. Maybe that's why we read on ScubaBoard over and over and over again,

"It's not the class, it's the instructor!"

 

[DCBC]

But all the training you suggest is already available! It's all over the place. Sure, OW might be a little light (I'm not saying it is unsafe!) but AOW, specialties, Rescue and even more advanced classes are all around.

Yes Richard, what you say is true. However the main difference between yesterday and now is then the diver was expected to be competent to gain experience; today he's still learning the basics after he's certified and often is yet to achieve competence.

Safety is attained through giving the diver independence and competence instead of dependence. Otherwise the diver requires a DM or instructor's to act as security blanket.

The standards have been lowered for the leadership levels as well. DM's find themselves in the position of rescuer and often have no one available to help them if they get into trouble (and this does happen; I just wrote of an personal experience in the lessons learned area).

Let's all get on the same page, people! If the education sucks, offer more. And do it BEFORE the new divers scare themselves silly in local water. Because one bad experience is all it takes to walk away from diving.

... Thal is right, you know! It takes about 100 hours and a bunch of dives to get this thing under control. OW provides the minimum (others argue less than minimum) so it's up to the instructors to SELL additional training. Before the divers walk away.

Consider OW as 25 of the 100 hours (optimistic). It's up to you guys (the instructors) to fill in the rest.

I believe what Thal is saying is that it may take 100 hours to initially train a research diver (although this is not where the training ends). I've found that half this time is sufficient to develop a solid foundation where the diver can safely build experience. This is of course each instructors call and this training time will vary with local conditions.

This is why I advocate solid diver training in the first instance. We have an opportunity to train close to 100% of the people that come to us properly (some will choose it's not for them). Why not do this? Why advocate training them and then trying to convince them that the training they received is inadequate and to sign-up for a couple of more courses to get them where they should be? Other than the business perspective, I can't see why an Instructor would do that.

Let's give up on this mentor thing. First of all, a wide disparity in diving skill doesn't necessarily help the new diver. It just gets them in over their heads a lot deeper. The other side of it: why would anybody want to dive with a new diver when they already have an outstanding dive buddy capable of making more advanced dives. This mentoring thing just doesn't work.

I don't know what prompted you to say this. It does work. Are you saying that a diver cannot learn and gain valuable experience from a more experienced diver? If you think about it, isn't that's what parenting is all about; caring and leading a child in the right direction? It's been working for millennium.

Furthermore, some people are just shy. They don't like meeting new people and sharing death defying moments together. They might be willing to dive in a controlled (instructed) group where one talented instructor is teaching them the ropes.

Consider for a moment that a new diver might just consider scuba diving a high risk sport. Why in the world would they trust their life to a 'mentor' they just met? Just because the guy says he has a card? Nonsense. What they want is more time with an instructor.

I agree; some people are shy. But diving is a team sport and people who are shy have to dive with someone. These people may wish to only seek further education through personal study and formal instruction (both of which are available to them).

...I wanted to spend as much time with an instructor as I could. After I finished Rescue, I thought I just might be able to survive.

Richard, you have made my point. If your initial training included everything up to and including your rescue course, you would have felt that "you could survive" from the get go. Is there not something wrong with certifying a diver who feels he can't survive with his level of knowledge?

The Military T-10 use to have a malfunction rate of about 0.4% If I taught a student and omitted to teach what to do in-case of a malfunction would I be negligent? The statistics would support that I wouldn't be negligent from not teaching this on a basic program. Why then is it included in the training program?

How would I feel if a student had a partial malfunction and died as a result? It's not an acceptable risk. Do I care if the student wants to learn about the subject matter? No. In-fact every student is all ears; they don't want to die. They don't have to tell me this; they are sane and obviously want to know.

The whole thing of teaching a diver X and if he later wants to know Y (something that can save his life or that of his buddy) he can come back on another course is crap. Of course he wants to know and he trusts the instructor to prepare him for such an eventuality.

That's why I teach basic diving students rescue skills. No one should be in a position of diving and watching their buddy drown on the surface. Telling them they should go out, do more diving and come back for another program to learn what they should already know doesn't cut it. The accident that kills them may occur on their next dive; they should have a fighting chance.

People can quote all the statistics they want. Divers continue to die needlessly. We can better prepare them, or we can close our eyes.

Sorry for the long response.

 

[Kingpatzer]

DCBC, let's back up a moment. We all realize that no training at all is needed to dive, correct? You can buy your gear over the net, you can get your air fills from a home compressor, or borrow tanks from a friend, and even have some stores fill the tanks for you.

There is no regulatory or legal requirement that one get certified. It is in no way a bar to diving at all. It is a bar to certain conveniences, but that is not the same thing.

Now we agree that training is valuable, and we agree that more training is better than less. But the idea that inadequate OW training is the reason people die (I'll accept that the death rate is some huge problem for the moment) misses the point that they don't need any training to be doing whatever it is that killed them in the first place.

The issue is about personal judgment. Regardless of if we say that the OW certification is for diving with a DM in a controlled environment, or if we say you haven't passed OW yet you can't dive without a DM as your buddy, or if we say you haven't passed OW yet stay out of the water, people in no way have to listen to instructors on that point.

They retain the freedom to go diving if they choose.

Ultimately we are talking about the individuals making intelligent and informed choices about their abilities and acting appropriately. OW students are told that they are only ready to dive within the level of their training in conditions similar or better to what they were trained in. They are given the recommendation to go on guided dives. They are told that it would be a benefit to practice their skills (our shop has open pool hours every week for divers to come in and do just that). They are told that they should strongly consider more class time and that they really only know the barest minimum.

Now, we can agree (and largely we do) that more training is better. But we can't stop an unregulated industry from responding to market forces without stopping the ability for anyone at all to dive regardless of level of training.

So do you propose that we ask the government to license divers and to give professional exams for instructors?

If not, do you realize that even if we could someone convince all the agencies out there to raise their standards to, and even above, your desired level that it won't matter? In an unregulated industry someone will always be looking for ways to beat the competition - and the only questions new students know to ask is "how long and how much?" So without regulation, economy will drive corporate behavior. And someone will always compete on price and time.

So I ask again, do you want to have governments license divers?

If not, do you realize the futility of your quest?

 

[TSandM]

The other side of it: why would anybody want to dive with a new diver when they already have an outstanding dive buddy capable of making more advanced dives. This mentoring thing just doesn't work

I totally disagree, especially given that I am the product of the "mentoring thing". Had Nw Grateful Diver not taken me under his wing when I was new, I doubt I would be diving today -- or at least, I wouldn't be the diver I am. As a result, I actively seek out new divers and offer to dive with them, and I would be very excited to find someone like I was -- somebody who said, "I want to dive like that. Can you help me get there?" I am not alone in our region, either. We have had, in the past (not this last summer, but before) a program of Big Buddy dives to do precisely this -- match novice divers with experienced buddies for a good dive and some technique tips -- and we have never had any problem finding enough Big Buddies to go around. (Although sometimes they have to dive with each other, because we didn't come up with enough novices!)

I do agree that people are often too shy to approach more experienced folks and ask to dive with them, and that's a shame.