Diving Education Today

[Thalassamania]

...

Now we can blame the lack of performance on panic (which should not happen, but does) or a lack of training. I just can't get to a lack of training. Certainly, every diver should have been told to drop the weights. I can't imagine it not coming up. I haven't taken a class lately but I'm hoping this skill hasn't been deleted. So I have to come back to panic. Not a lack of training.

There will be other points of view.

Richard

I guess someone could make the case that more training would have reduced the probability of panic. They could be right. But some people just don't handle stress very well. Others eat it up!

Richard

It's not just a question of stress or panic, Egstrom, in his work at UCLA showed that it takes 17 correct repetitions of a moderate skill in order to have 95% confidence that the skill will be performed properly. The current practice of do it once or twice and move on does not begin to reach that threshold. Just because someone "PADI mastered" a skill does mean that it is reasonable to expect them to perform it for real, even under ideal circumstances.

 

[boulderjohn]

It's not just a question of stress or panic, Egstrom, in his work at UCLA showed that it takes 17 correct repetitions of a moderate skill in order to have 95% confidence that the skill will be performed properly. .

I remember a time in the past when you cited this research. You were asked for more information and you said you would try to find it. You may well have done so, but I must have missed it if you did. I would really appreciate seeing the full research in context.

 

[rstofer]

Dr. Glen Egstrom is well documented on Google. He's been in this diving thing since the invention of water. Maybe a little earlier...

At the bottom of this page there is a reference to a book "Diving Medicine" and Dr. Egstrom's chapters on human performance:

CV for Glen Egstrom, Ph.D.

I don't know that this is the relevant work but I'm going to try and find the book.

Richard

 

[Thalassamania]

If memory serves Glen presented that information at one of the International Conferences on Underwater Education. I think (though I would not swear it) that it is also in the Human Performance and Diving volume that he did with Art Bacarach.

Details of the study (again from memory) are: students were taught to buddy breathe and then practiced buddy breathing a predetermined number of times. They were tested for their ability to successfully buddy breathe, which meant being able to swim a lap of a pool sharing air.

 

[rstofer]

It's not just a question of stress or panic, Egstrom, in his work at UCLA showed that it takes 17 correct repetitions of a moderate skill in order to have 95% confidence that the skill will be performed properly. The current practice of do it once or twice and move on does not begin to reach that threshold. Just because someone "PADI mastered" a skill does mean that it is reasonable to expect them to perform it for real, even under ideal circumstances.

And Vince Lombardi said that "Only perfect practice makes perfect". We're back to that definition of "mastery". Two reps probably doesn't qualify.

I ordered a copy of the book from Alibris. I hope the chapters contain the relevant information.

Richard

 

[Thalassamania]

Here's a quote from:
Executive Action
Should The BSAC Teach CESA?
Steve Warren
Link


Writing in "Stress and Performance in Diving" recognized dive safety experts Bacchrach and Glen Egstrom underscore the problems: "in the case of buddy breathing, a study conducted by the UCLA Diving Safety Research Project determined that 17-21 successful trials of the skill resulted in performance without errors in a group of basic students. It was also noted that that following three months of diving without reinforcing the skill, there were were degraded performances involving errors in procedures. It seems obvious then that not only should the skills be well learned, but they should be periodically reinforced, especially in circumstances where the buddies are diving together for the first time".

 

[rstofer]

Here's a quote from:
Executive Action
Should The BSAC Teach CESA?
Steve Warren

So what was the result on teaching CESA? I'm curious what they came up with. No, I don't want to start another "Should we teach..." thread.

Richard

 

[mdb]

OK, help me with this one. I would have thought the results would have been the opposite. If stds are lower and it's easier to pass folks through, wouldn't there be more new divers? Has there really been a big drop off in the number of new divers getting certified? I think I read on here somewhere that PADI certifies over 100,000 divers a year but I guess that could be a big drop if they had been doing 200,000 a year in the past. I don't know.

We are at a very low level of basic new diver certs. The number is in the low 200k range. The US population is 330 million +.

In the early 80's the US population was in the 250 million range and diving was recording new certs @ about 250k per year.

We can count all the extra courses, rescue, AOW, etc. The essential number is how many folks take a basic cert each year.

We now have fewer new divers and an aging population of previously certified divers.

If the new diver had a good grasp on skills and was comfortable in their home environment it would seem that they would influence others to dive. If they are one weekend warriors with a referral to some warm water check out maybe they would not so be inclined to dive in local waters.

I've have been diving in the Caymans, Cozumel, HI, the great diving in the Florida Keys and all that. My favorite diving is here, Point Lobos, the Channel Islands, the
North Coast of California. I was fortunate to have been trained properly to dive in local waters.

Lower standards do not increase retention or growth.

 

[rstofer]

We are at a very low level of basic new diver certs. The number is in the low 200k range. The US population is 330 million +.

In the early 80's the US population was in the 250 million range and diving was recording new certs @ about 250k per year.

We can count all the extra courses, rescue, AOW, etc. The essential number is how many folks take a basic cert each year.

We now have fewer new divers and an aging population of previously certified divers.

I've have been diving in the Caymans, Cozumel, HI, the great diving in the Florida Keys and all that. My favorite diving is here, Point Lobos, the Channel Islands, the
North Coast of California. I was fortunate to have been trained properly to dive in local waters.

Lower standards do not increase retention or growth.

I think you need to look at demographics. We have more people but they aren't in the financial bracket that has disposable income. And nothing can continue to grow at the rate diving grew in the '80s and '90s. The stock market tried and failed.

At the moment, very few people have disposable income! They sure can't get home equity loans to pay for their new toys. Still PADI Americas turned out 180,000 NEW divers. Add in NAUI and the rest and you might be looking at 250k or more! In the US...

Other factors might include the cost of gear. Sure as a percentage of total income, it is probably not as impressive as just the number itself. But, really, $600+ for a regulator? $500 for a BC? $200 for fins? $400 for a computer? No wonder people take a look at the sport and give it a pass. I figure the starup costs for gear alone are around $2500.

Completely outfitting 3 divers plus a couple of toys for myself and I dropped more than $10k on gear last year. That's a pretty big hit for a guy on a fixed income. Not a lot of families are willing to spend that much money to dive in the cold dark waters of Monterey. Decorator Crabs are pretty interesting but so is a pile of $100 bills!

Still, when I get down to Breakwater, the place is filled with dive classes. Every divable weekend (and some that aren't), there are classes set up on the lawn and the picnic benches. There are a few others in the parking lot. If there is a shortage of students, you won't see it at Breakwater.

The industry will never again grow like it did in the '80s and '90s. I'm surprised it has held up as well as it has. Too bad most of the manufacturers are private companies or subsidiaries of large companies. It's pretty hard to get a picture of total retail sales in the US.

Richard

 

[BDSC]

Lower standards do not increase retention or growth.

I would certainly agree that if stds are lowered, it would not help with the retention of new divers. But it certainly wouldn't discourage a potential new diver from giving it a try.

If the industry has seen a drop off in new divers signing up, it just doesn't add up that it's because stds have been lowered. If that were the case, every agency out there would make everything really tough and the numbers would go back up.