Diving Education Today

[Slonda828]

So I says to myself, what would I have to do at my job when the computahs ain't broken if I couldn't come in here and watch yous guys argue all day? I dunno. 22 pages...maybe we can break a record for the most time spent accomplishing nothing. Anyone have the GBWR's number?

 

[DCBC]

If the course were longer it would cost more. Breaking it up into 5 courses does probably provide a little more profit just like buying 5 candy bars separately costs more than buying a "5 pack" but it doesn't result in 500% profit for the company. It's the premium of convenience.

The certification body makes x amount per certification; multiply the certifications by five, they make 5 times more income than if they only processed one certification.

The LDS base a profit margin on each program they offer i.e. income - expenses. Some programs costs more than others, but this cost is passed on to the students, allowing the LDS to secure a given income per hour of staff/Instructor usage. Assuming that a course is full (it's at the discretion of the LDS when these programs are offered), the profit should be directly proportional to the number of hours of training. Five times the training should bring five-times the income from that training. The more training that's generated generally increases the sales of equipment and more profit.

 

[TSandM]

I don't think any training program will ever get subsequent fatalities to zero. There are things like immersion pulmonary edema, which is not age-related and is entirely unpredictable. There are powerful down currents. There are closed head injuries when approaching a boat in heavy seas. Diving is like flying or rock climbing . . . there ARE forces more powerful than oneself, and things that can happen despite totally appropriate care that can lead to a death.

And even fairly comprehensive training is not going to prevent people from becoming complacent for from forgetting something -- a review of the CCR deaths will show that, I think. Many of the people who I have read about in the last few years had both adequate CCR training (and I don't think you can argue that most of that is standard OW quality) and some kind of rigorous advanced training (tech, cave) as well.

I think programs like Scripps, or LA County, or GUE/UTD OW are wonderful, and I'm quite sure the people who graduate from them move much more quickly to be truly independent, safe and joyful divers. But I know that I wouldn't have signed up for any of them. If you had made learning to dive a multiple-month process costing more than $1000, I wouldn't have done it. I didn't even know if I was going to LIKE diving.

I don't think everybody has to train that way. I think you can turn out a reasonable novice diver from the class my husband teaches. Perhaps you can't do it in a weekend, but a three week class with six pool sessions and two days of open water diving CAN prepare people to do simple dives safely on their own. If you combine that with instructors who have immediately visible excellent skills, and who make it clear that further training should be in the plans of anybody who intends to continue to dive, I think you can do a decent job of things. Not everybody will dive like Thal, or Larry Green, or the guys who explored the Britannic. But not everybody needs to.

 

[DCBC]

I don't think any training program will ever get subsequent fatalities to zero. There are things like immersion pulmonary edema, which is not age-related and is entirely unpredictable. There are powerful down currents. There are closed head injuries when approaching a boat in heavy seas. Diving is like flying or rock climbing . . . there ARE forces more powerful than oneself, and things that can happen despite totally appropriate care that can lead to a death.

You make some excellent points. We will never get subsequent fatalities to zero; any more than physicians will eliminate disease and injury. We can however do our best to educate on how best to reduce these occurrences through education and increased fitness.

 

[Thalassamania]

You may disagree but it's not BS nor does the concept of "lie" have a place here. I'm not "lying". You wouldn't have the same safety record however you would have a better safety record than with the public at large. I'm not familiar with the fatality at Auburn.

I ever said that you were lying, the phrase, "put's the lie to ..." means "demonstrates the incorrectness of ..."

In the Auburn case (I think it was Auburn) a student died of a embolism in the pool whilst practicing buoyant free ascents in partnership with another student. The instructor (a recreational instructor) was off in another part of the pool with another student, thus the practicing students were effectively without supervision. The exercise in question is one the is core to the Scripps Model Program and that we use extensively.

My point was that you had said:

I think the problem is with implementing it globally. If many of the people who are certified today would have been eliminated either by never signing up in the first place (self selection) or by not passing then any system would result in far fewer fatalities.

It's the cherry picking approach.

and I pinpointed a case, involving the very sort of student that you see as cherry picking, which is what demonstrates the incorrectness of the argument you were advancing.

Do you plan to select out as you age? Stan Waterman hasn't done so. I don't plan on it unless it's something doctor recommended. Lynne tells us that the first indication of heart disease for many is sudden death. Should people with high blood pressure quit diving? What should they now do to enjoy life?

Why should I care what Stan does? I have on several occasions stopped diving until various medical situations were resolved, as have may of my colleagues, that's rather normal. Yes, there are conditions, that should I develop them, would cause me to stop diving entirely and forever.

One local diver died standing beside his dive buddy at a very benign site. Yes, his BC was not inflated so if you want to argue with hindsight that no one coming out of your program would ever stand in chest deep water without air in their BC then there's your out. Otherwise, it appears he slipped and hit his head but his buddy didn't see this. He looked for him (limited viz) and thought perhaps he started toward their goal (the pipeline). It turned out he was right where they were standing in less than 6 feet of water.

Now of course I can say it wouldn't happen to me and I can explain how they could have done a few things differently but really...his time was up. This would almost never happen again. That's what I meant.

Sounds more like team failure to me, not "time is up."

They complete the course because they are college students and have to complete the course. Many of the people flopping off boats in Cozumel wouldn't complete the course because they don't care about diving that much. How about that combined with ADD...that's a pretty good description of another fatality up here.

You have this picture of a class of students, 18 to 24, in perfect shape, bright eyed and bushy-tailed ... I hate to burst your bubble. A typical class had grad students in their thirties, faculty and staff in the fifties and even some older folks in their sixties. If people don't care about diving that much, that's fine, be honest with them, they need to dive under close supervision.

What data? There is no data needed to support my statement that you can't eliminate stupidity and poor judgment. Are you saying that if I could get every person in the world to go through your course that there would be no more stupidity in the world? Would no one ever have a lapse in judgment and do something stupid? Really?

You say that people die because of stupidity and poor judgment and that we can not eliminate stupidity and poor judgment. I tell you that the data is that no one has died, thus ipso facto, according to you, we must have been able to eliminate stupidity and poor judgment.

 

[openmindOW]

Rescue, DM, instructor and tech levels should be taken VERY seriously - more seriously than they are today. It's not just the accidents that define diving. The near misses DAN never hears about change the sport.

I fully agree that Professional level courses need to be tougher.

I attend RSTC meetings representing PDIC that have been set up by the industry for the sole purpose of preventing government regulation. PADI, SSI, SDI, IDEA, PDIC and the YMCA (now SEI and not currently attending) have been determining minimum training standards as a collective body for years. The little agencies usually push for higher standards at these meetings only to be defeated or surrender to the larger agencies.

Interesting.

 

[openmindOW]

People don't die from planting a bush and people don't die because they didn't have a 12 week scuba class. They die due to poor judgment in many cases . . . .

IMHO, the potential of poor judgment SCUBA decision can be addressed, and perhaps ameliorated, by good academic training. Academic lectures can emphasize safety issues.

You just can't do that well in an on-line class.

 

[DCBC]

IMHO, the potential of poor judgment SCUBA decision can be addressed, and perhaps ameliorated, by good academic training. Academic lectures can emphasize safety issues.

You just can't do that well in an on-line class.

Yes, further instruction can aid in the process of preparing the diver. I wouldn't discount on-line learning, but it may not allow for added information that an Instructor may be able to pass along during the process.

Another point is that I appreciate getting to know the student, as it allows be to assess him/her and suggest how they may best prepare themselves. Maybe this is an antiquated notion, but I think it will take some time before on-line learning is proven superior to real-time human interaction.

 

[boulderjohn]

IMHO, the potential of poor judgment SCUBA decision can be addressed, and perhaps ameliorated, by good academic training. Academic lectures can emphasize safety issues.

You just can't do that well in an on-line class.

...all evidence to the contrary.

 

[Thalassamania]

I suspect that you can address whatever want to in an online class, its a matter of design, what you can't do is address the unexpected.