CCR and OC Buddies

[Gombessa]

If you're that uncomfortable with your OC rescue skills, I'd suggest practicing them. Seriously.

I was being partially facetious, but honestly speaking, how many people actively practice toxing diver rescue outside of class? Yeah, I can do it, but my take on it is similar to CESA - know what it is, but expend the majority of your effort making it unnecessary.

Seriously. Until you've tried, you have NO idea how different your response needs to be in each case. Again, only his response to your issues is "familiar and anticipated".

I disagree that you have NO idea how different a response must be. Clearly, you can think through a response and understand how it may differ on different units, but unless someone can tell me otherwise, (and I'm happy to be corrected), bail out to OC and manage an ascent sounds like the correct response to either an OC or CCR unresponsive diver. Having seen the MC90, I'd actually be very interested if someone familiar with the unit could explain whether it would be insufficient to flip the loop to OC while removing it, donate a long hose, dump the lungs and manage the wing on ascent with the power inflator.

Sounds like he'd be SOL if he had problems that weren't easily solved by him being able to bailout (to your gas or his own).

Again, from what I can see, only to the same degree as he would be on OC.

Keep in mind here that I'm not saying I'm presumptuous enough to have this all figured out, or that I think OC and mixed teams present no additional complications. Rather, understand the position I'm responding from: I'm not a tech diver, I've not been trained in failure management beyond what's taught in Fundamentals, and what I bring to the table is clearly quite limited. Given that, we can see that the response to a problem on my end is nearly identical with some CCR designs, and my response to a problem on the CCR end would be similar as well. In my opinion, that kind of design presents a huge benefit over ones where the response in a mixed team would be completely alien (what if the CCR diver had no bailout for his buddy? All things being equal, would that be a better situation, the same, or worse?). Certainly there are differences that you need to learn if you want to dive this way, but does the system make it easier or harder to do so?

 

[Rainer]

I was being partially facetious, but honestly speaking, how many people actively practice toxing diver rescue outside of class? Yeah, I can do it, but my take on it is similar to CESA - know what it is, but expend the majority of your effort making it unnecessary.

Many of us practice these skills. And we're not diving complicated gas blending machines on our backs which greatly increase the liklihood of passing out / toxing compared to OC.

I disagree that you have NO idea how different a response must be. Clearly, you can think through a response and understand how it may differ on different units, but unless someone can tell me otherwise, (and I'm happy to be corrected), bail out to OC and manage an ascent sounds like the correct response to either an OC or CCR unresponsive diver. Having seen the MC90, I'd actually be very interested if someone familiar with the unit could explain whether it would be insufficient to flip the loop to OC while removing it, donate a long hose, dump the lungs and manage the wing on ascent with the power inflator.

Wow, so you'd remove the loop and not close it? Goooood luck with that rescue when the unit floods. Whoosh.

Again, from what I can see,

That's the problem. You have zero RB experience. You don't know what you don't know.

Keep in mind here that I'm not saying I'm presumptuous enough to have this all figured out, or that I think OC and mixed teams present no additional complications. Rather, understand the position I'm responding from: I'm not a tech diver, I've not been trained in failure management beyond what's taught in Fundamentals, and what I bring to the table is clearly quite limited. Given that, we can see that the response to a problem on my end is nearly identical with some CCR designs, and my response to a problem on the CCR end would be similar as well. In my opinion, that kind of design presents a huge benefit over ones where the response in a mixed team would be completely alien (what if the CCR diver had no bailout for his buddy? All things being equal, would that be a better situation, the same, or worse?). Certainly there are differences that you need to learn if you want to dive this way, but does the system make it easier or harder to do so?

The MC90 *at best* only addresses the issue of aiding the OC diver in the mixed team. When the OC diver has no knowledge of the RB or RB procedures, you have only addressed one side of the equation. That's not unified team diving.

And seriously, if all you're doing are some easy, fun NDL dives, why is your teammate on a RB in the first place? Sure, in this case, he's probably trying to gain more than 20 hours on the unit before becoming an instructor, but in general? If the RB is *required* for the dive (or makes it substantially easier than OC), fine, but then there's no need for the mixed team approach anyway. So much for the RB being a tool matched to the environment...

 

[Gombessa]

Wow, so you'd remove the loop and not close it? Goooood luck with that rescue when the unit floods. Whoosh.

I said to flip the loop to OC while removing it. My understanding is that closes the loop. Tell me I'm wrong.

That's the problem. You have zero RB experience. You don't know what you don't know.

No argument there. I'm actually WAY more in agreement with what you're saying than you think. I'm just being somewhat difficult

 

[Cave Diver]

Ok, I'm going to go ahead and jump in with the description of a dive I did with an OC Intro diver and my regular CCR Full Cave buddy.

First off, everyone laid out their gear and started the assembly process. Since OC is much faster to assemble than CCR (at least for me) the OC buddy came over and observed some of the process. Among the things that I pointed out was the locations of:

1) My DSV (Dive/Surface Valve on mouthpiece that opens/closes loop)
2) My ADV (Automatic Diluent Valve, used to add diluent to the loop)
3) HUD (Heads Up Display, red/green LED's that show PO2 via blinking color combos)
4) Primary Display (Attached to wrist, shows digital PO2 readout)
5) Bailout bottle/reg on 7' hose.

Dive plan was discussed in relation to who would be team leader and set the reel, where we were going, etc. The OC diver was put in the middle. CCR divers elected to run a PO2 that displayed a single blink of red/green LED to simplify the OC's ability to read it. They were told that a single red or green LED by itself was a problem and they were to signal immediately (it's not necessarily a problem, but this was a simpler way of dealing with the issue than having to explain all the acceptable blink sequences for our HUD's)

If a CCR divers acts "funny" on my team, we have a rule that buddy is to donate OC long hose and the receiving diver must take it. This is a command signal, just like thumbing the dive. We only return to the loop after everyone is sure the issue is sorted to everyone's satisfaction.

If CCR has to donate to OC diver, they will hand off their long hose on bailout bottle. Whether or not CCR hands off entire bottle or not will be sorted after the OOA situation is handled. This is a dive ending situation.

If CCR diver goes unresponsive, OC diver instructed to let other CCR diver handle it, with them on standby to help. In the event of a restriction where other CCR diver can't access, OC diver is to attempt flushing the loop by use of the ADV. If that's unsuccessful, they are to attempt to donate air with long hose, purging lightly and shut loop using DSV. They should also be verifying PO2 via Primary Handset or HUD during this time.

Standard hand signals for turning the dive, pressure checks, etc. were discussed. After dive briefing, all divers geared up, reviewed each others gear placement and equipment checks and entered the water.

In the water, shallow s-drills and bubble checks were done and the team entered the cave and finished the dive by the plan discussed in the briefing.

Post dive, there was a debrief to review the dive and address any issues that occurred.

Happy to answer any comments/critiques on the procedure.

 

[Rainer]

I said to flip the loop to OC while removing it. My understanding is that closes the loop. Tell me I'm wrong.

I *assume* what you mean is you'd throw the BOV to OC, but not actually close the mouthpiece. Correct? Let's put it this way, do you know that would prevent the RB from flooding (in which case you, or rather the RB diver, would be ****ed)?

No argument there. I'm actually WAY more in agreement with what you're saying than you think. I'm just being somewhat difficult

The MC90 will forever remain COMPLETELY non-DIR until the OC divers in these mixed teams are forced to take the same RB class as those diving the units. You simply cannot be a function teammate if you don't know how the other diver's gear works and how to respond to issues he might be having. Even then, it's of limited value to the vast majority of DIR divers.

 

[Gombessa]

I *assume* what you mean is you'd throw the BOV to OC, but not actually close the mouthpiece. Correct? Let's put it this way, do you know that would prevent the RB from flooding (in which case you, or rather the RB diver, would be ****ed)?

Yep, the loop bailout functions as the DSV. I know that as much as I can without diving the unit myself, but I guess that's your point below

The MC90 will forever remain COMPLETELY non-DIR until the OC divers in these mixed teams are forced to take the same RB class as those diving the units. You simply cannot be a function teammate if you don't know how the other diver's gear works and how to respond to issues he might be having. Even then, it's of limited value to the vast majority of DIR divers.

Just out of curiosity, does that position translate to the RB80 as well? Or are you saying that it's just non-DIR in mixed team situations?

 

[Rainer]

Just out of curiosity, does that position translate to the RB80 as well? Or are you saying that it's just non-DIR in mixed team situations?

Mixed teams primarily (*from a DIR perspective*). Either the RB is needed for the dive, in which case everyone should be on one, or it isn't (so dive OC). If you need to train, train with those who have similar training and understand the unit in and out. Don't subject new OC divers to your lack of adequately prepared buddies issue. Or at least don't kid yourself and call it DIR.

Whether most DIR proponents actually "need" a unit like the MC90 or RB80 for their regular fun dives is rather questionable...

 

[Gombessa]

Despite the validity of your arguments, I'm still going to call you Doug henceforth

 

[Ghost.Diver]

To me it was a great learning experience. It is or can be common here to have a mix team. I think if you are about to do a mix dive and your CCR buddy doesnt go through a good " what to do " briefing then you need to call the dive. He already has issues by not being a good buddy IMO..

Ok, I'll bite. Why do you suggest that CCR buddy(ies) are not being a "good buddy" in this case? Is it because it's a mixed team or something else?

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Ok, I'll bite. Why do you suggest that CCR buddy(ies) are not being a "good buddy" in this case? Is it because it's a mixed team or something else?

Ok you and I are about to make a dive. You on CCR, me on OC. If you dont think its necessary for me to know how to help you then I think you are a BAD buddy. The ones I have completed dves with all made it a point to educate me. I could give a you know what wether I dive with OC or CCR buddies. But if I have no interest in learning how to save you on it then I am not a good buddy either. And I hope you would call me on it. Is that clearer for you? I am dead tired, 14hr shift today.