Out of air emergency at 105 feet

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I think we're beginning to miss some of the points of the original situation.

If the DM of a dive I was paying to be on came up to me at depth OOA half way through the dive, after a series of reptative dives, I would give them air and make our ascent. We'd do the SS. If he wanted to surface, I would protest. If he really wanted to surface. More power to him.

There is no indication in this account that rescue could not have been completed without a SS. Just that the DM, the pro, waived off the SS.

It is like if you are released AMA out of the hospital. They protest, but they let you go.

This DM lost his decision making privilages when he forgot to check the air in his tanks before he jumped in the water. Are we going to listen to the guy who should have been the responsible one?
 
I agree with everyone in saying you did a good job keeping your cool. Shame on the DM for not keeping track of his air supply or changing out his tank from the previous dive. That's very sloppy and inattentive which can get himself or those he is supervising hurt. Sounds more like he was a DM candidate (and a poor one at that). Generally I'd say let him go up and keep yourself safe. Don't let his lax behavior and practices put you in danger!
 
I think we're beginning to miss some of the points of the original situation.

Respectfully, I disagree. From where I sit, the analysis doesn't change.

If the DM of a dive I was paying to be on came up to me at depth OOA half way through the dive, after a series of reptative dives, I would give them air and make our ascent. We'd do the SS. If he wanted to surface, I would protest. If he really wanted to surface. More power to him.

I think we agree that there is disagreement on this point. But I don't see any misunderstanding.

There is no indication in this account that rescue could not have been completed without a SS. Just that the DM, the pro, waived off the SS.

And no indication otherwise, which is the heart of the problem. The issues are margin of safety versus difficulty in communication underwater. Missing an optional safety stop doesn't appreciably diminish that margin (and repetitive doesn't really matter here if you're following the residuals on your tables or computer). More importantly, giving thumbs in response to a safety stop signal can mean a number of things other than "I waive the stop for no good reason."

It is like if you are released AMA out of the hospital. They protest, but they let you go.

That doesn't sound like a proper analogy. If "AMA" is walking out of the hospital "against medical advice," then the implication is that he feels fine and he's DEPARTING FROM a place of assistance (also, presumably after an attempted discussion about why he should or shouldn't go, and in a situation where medical caregivers KNOW what his ailment is). Here, a victim with an unknown condition is running TOWARDS help. It's more like someone running INTO a hospital, and you you grab them and push them to the ground to prevent them from crossing over the lawn. Yes, you could lead him to the hospital by dragging him around the sidewalk, but without a way to ask what the problem is, it's hard to justify that "there is no indication that rescue could not have been completed without" getting there ASAP--in scuba, you can't ask him why he's running into the hospital so quickly, could be something serious.

This DM lost his decision making privilages when he forgot to check the air in his tanks before he jumped in the water. Are we going to listen to the guy who should have been the responsible one?

Would I trust this DM to lead another dive with me? No way. But again, the issue is that in an underwater emergency and panic situation, you don't know what the problem is or isn't, and for many, the balance of safety margin v. surface and likely consequences tips towards the latter. It has nothing to do with the DM making any kind of decision for the buddy team. After the fact, we're free to review the situation and discuss whether a safety stop could have been made under the circumstances, but you know what they say about hindsight.

I still maintain that once a stressed diver has your octo, if he really wants to go up, he probably won't give up the regulator and you're likely going to find yourself being dragged up as well, so you might as well do so in as controlled and slow a manner as possible and avoid a potential AGE.
 
Nuts,
Nice job. I'm a Dm and I always check my air and everyone who is diving with me, but that's just me. I would have stopped air permitting for at least three minutes. Like everyone else is saying if he wanted to go, I would have stayed and waved at him.
Stay safe,
Shinny
 
I think we're beginning to miss some of the points of the original situation.

If the DM of a dive I was paying to be on came up to me at depth OOA half way through the dive, after a series of reptative dives, I would give them air and make our ascent. We'd do the SS. If he wanted to surface, I would protest. If he really wanted to surface. More power to him.

There is no indication in this account that rescue could not have been completed without a SS. Just that the DM, the pro, waived off the SS.

It is like if you are released AMA out of the hospital. They protest, but they let you go.

This DM lost his decision making privilages when he forgot to check the air in his tanks before he jumped in the water. Are we going to listen to the guy who should have been the responsible one?

I understand what you are saying, and I'd be pretty bent out of shape once I got to the surface and learned the DM was "ok" and did not have an urgent need to skip the safety stop.

But without being able to actually talk to each other underwater, when a diver gives the signal to surface, and that diver is breathing off your spare reg, your only choices are to surface with the OOA diver or take back your octo and wave goodbye.

If the OOA diver did not hand back the reg, signal "OK", wave goodbye and swim up to the surface on his own, I would not abandon him, even at 15'. Even if he had already screwed up like the DM in this incident.... in fact, especially if he had already screwed up.

The fact that I had "paid" for the services of the diver I was assisting makes no difference. I'm not going to be any less attentive with a DM, instructor, or 12 year old diver. I'm not going to assume anything, other than the diver is OOA and needs help.

The diver went OOA, and now signals he wants to skip the safety stop and surface. I do not know why he needs to surface, but I do know that I can surface with him in relative safety because it is just a safety stop.

Best wishes.
 
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I expect a professional to act like a professional. If I say we are doing a safety stop, then we are doing one. If he wants to try to drag me to the surface, then let him try. At the very least, I am getting a full refund for the dive charter if that happens.

The whole discussion is kinda ridiculous. It is almost beyond comprehension that the DM couldn't take a few quick breaths from the octo and then leisurely float to the surface from 15-20 feet. Is dive training THIS WEAK, that we consider an out of air ascent from 15 feet this dangerous?

Of course if the diver were acting really strange or coughing or something, I would blow off the stop and help, but if everything was cool and he simply thumbed the safety stop, he is on his own.
 
The fact that I had "paid" for the services of the diver I was assisting makes no difference. I'm not going to be any less attentive with a DM, instructor, or 12 year old diver. I'm not going to assume anything, other than the diver is OOA and needs help.

The diver went OOA, and now signals he wants to skip the safety stop and surface. I do not know why he needs to surface, but I do know that I can surface with him in relative safety because it is just a safety stop.

Best wishes.

I know I'd be looking for a refund when I got in, though. If you have a screwed up dive because something went wrong, well that's just part of diving. When your dive is hosed because the guy you paid did something stupid and you had to bail him out, that's another story. Especially if you're vacationing somewhere and you've just lost half a day out of very few on site.

Where a safety stop is a recommendation to increase your margin for error, you have to weigh the benefit gained there against trying to hold a potentially unstable diver at 15'. Was it safer to surface, or to stay where you were with a diver in that state of mind? If you chose the safer option, or the risk of a bad thing happening from either option was close to equal, then you did the right thing. Under the circumstances, you have to wonder about the experience level and qualifications of the "victim" though.
 
Geeze, you guys are pretty hard on someone who, judging from the description of his eyes, was obviously in distress. I sincerely hope if you are ever in trouble, your buddy treats you as kindly as nuts4corals treated this incompetent DM. Incompetent or not, he's still a person and should be treated accordingly.

No Fred, I wasn't there, but all those bent were friends of mine.
 
Yeah, the DM sounds like he blew it a few times - but as the case was presented, it'd be tempting to stay for the SS, let him skip SS to CESA yet as poorly as this DM handled the dive, he needed all the help he could get. Yes, it was a rescue and should have been finished as one. Glad Nuts did, and hope I get it right if I have to.
 
My goodness! From the tone of this thread, you would think we were all on the bitter edge of getting bent every time we dive, unless we did enough decompression.

This is RECREATIONAL diving. NO STOP diving, by definition. Safety stops are ADVISED, but they are not required. You are always where your model's M-value permits a direct, controlled ascent to the surface. A safety stop is a great idea, but can ALWAYS be jettisoned for an urgent reason to get to the surface. A diver on my long hose may not be an urgent reason to get to the surface, but an anxious, distressed or panicking diver on my long hose is ABSOLUTELY an urgent reason to get to the surface, and in that situation, I would skip the safety stop without any qualms at all. As long as the ascent in general was controlled in rate, I'd be fine.

Anyone who thinks that his own need to do a safety stop on a recreational dive trumps the need to take an OOG diver safely to the surface, needs a better understanding of decompression. I recomment Mark Powell's Deco for Divers. With a broader understanding of decompression models and what they assume, and what they do, you can make better decisions about where to change your procedures when events demand it.
 

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