Pony bottle & recreational diving...Need input...

[Stoy D Dabbs]

Buddy or No buddy, I look at pony bottle and regulator as a safety equipmint, no matter what depth. It's about being Self-Sufficiency.
I do not like to put my life depending on one tank and one regulator below 60', there are failure points in a system, like hose, o'rings and most common are free flows. Doing an emergency ascent has risk of DCI.

 

[usmarinekurt]

not all wrecks are sitting on Pennekamp and not all dives are sitting in 40 feet of water overweighted with a camera. Where I live our wrecks are not artificial reefs, are in dark water and get fished daily. Thus there are broken lines ,hooks,lost anchors and plenty of obstacles. Add that to bad viz and there is certainly a chance of something unexpected happening.
Funny- I posted a thread saying I was considering putting 02 on my boat and any divers who responded almost felt it was a requirement....GEE why have 02 on board if NOTHING can ever happen?
Id like to take some Cali divers with us on the u853 sub and I bet you clear water divers will feel its a completely different sport.

 

[tyesai]

This kind of discussion is similiar to one you can find in the gun community. Some hunters wonder why some people carry concealed weapons. Some people that carry concealed feel that all you need is a good old snubby 5 shot .38, and think that anyone who carries a hi-capacity auto is going overboard. Then some of the guys carrying around a hi-cap auto think that people carrying two concealed guns are whack jobs and that two concealed weapons really only need to be carried by people who have a higher risk of confrontation, like cops that have tasered one to many people.

It is your life man, if you want to strap on three tanks, two knifes, a pair of scissors, 3 spear guns, one of those Co2 injector things, 5 light sticks, a big flashlight, a small flashlight, an extra mask, a whistle, a mirror, and some arm floaties, then I say go for it. It is your life and your are ultimately responsible for it.

 

[DC53]

I’m the OP.

OK, I can see from all the replies, a couple of things:

My instructor and I do have a mismatch to have certain degree. I think though that I have a lot to learn from him and like him and will stay with him despite this issue.

However, I have tried to look inside myself and listen to all opinions and realize that I am just someone who wants redundant levels of safety no matter what my skill level is. I have a very high level of skill in another sport which also entails risk and have integrated as much redundancy into my equipment as possible without imposing any drawback on performance. Even though I have never had to use it, I feel good about having it (even though others at my level don’t use redundancy.)

My own sense is that if I cannot swim to the top on one breath of air, I want redundancy. I’m in good shape but have slowly arrived at the age of 56 years and am far from the competitive swimmer that my wife is. I doubt I could safely or reliably come up from 60 feet or below on one breath, and frequently dive in that range, often with limited viz. My wife, who at least for now is my designated buddy, if frightened at the very idea of needing redundancy, even talking about it, although she is comfortable scuba diving at my level. She doesn’t mind if I use it however.

I am meticulous in checking equipment before diving, pressures, regs, valves. The last thing I always do before putting my arm through the BCD is check that both valves are ON, and that is done AFTER checking both tank pressures. In the water I carry 3 more pounds on the left than the right to compensate balance but other than that I don’t feel it while swimming. I practice switching between my primary, to my octo, to the secondary underwater with my eyes closed, from time to time. Then I go swimming and feel almost completely relaxed.

But I think that what I will do is do the easy dives without it to accommodate to the instructor and also experience it differently, but when we go out into the ocean for the six check out wreck dives which will be in the Atlantic offshore, I will keep my pony. And for anything pushing the limits of rec diving a little closer it will be a slung 30cu ft as opposed to the back mounted 19.

I may eat my words someday but that is what I think now.

 

[mts0628]

I’m the OP.

OK, I can see from all the replies, a couple of things:

My instructor and I do have a mismatch to have certain degree. I think though that I have a lot to learn from him and like him and will stay with him despite this issue.

However, I have tried to look inside myself and listen to all opinions and realize that I am just someone who wants redundant levels of safety no matter what my skill level is. I have a very high level of skill in another sport which also entails risk and have integrated as much redundancy into my equipment as possible without imposing any drawback on performance. Even though I have never had to use it, I feel good about having it (even though others at my level don’t use redundancy.)

My own sense is that if I cannot swim to the top on one breath of air, I want redundancy. I’m in good shape but have slowly arrived at the age of 56 years and am far from the competitive swimmer that my wife is. I doubt I could safely or reliably come up from 60 feet or below on one breath, and frequently dive in that range, often with limited viz. My wife, who at least for now is my designated buddy, if frightened at the very idea of needing redundancy, even talking about it, although she is comfortable scuba diving at my level. She doesn’t mind if I use it however.

I am meticulous in checking equipment before diving, pressures, regs, valves. The last thing I always do before putting my arm through the BCD is check that both valves are ON, and that is done AFTER checking both tank pressures. In the water I carry 3 more pounds on the left than the right to compensate balance but other than that I don’t feel it while swimming. I practice switching between my primary, to my octo, to the secondary underwater with my eyes closed, from time to time. Then I go swimming and feel almost completely relaxed.

But I think that what I will do is do the easy dives without it to accommodate to the instructor and also experience it differently, but when we go out into the ocean for the six check out wreck dives which will be in the Atlantic offshore, I will keep my pony. And for anything pushing the limits of rec diving a little closer it will be a slung 30cu ft as opposed to the back mounted 19.

I may eat my words someday but that is what I think now.

Hey DC53:

Skydiving? If so, I don't care how good I am, I will never jump without an active AAD either. If not skydiving, sorry for the confusion...

Again, it's your choice and only when you feel completely comfortable should you shed your pony bottle. I will say though, that at your age, with your limited number of dives, and your gas consumption rate, very strong work! And while you may not be able to swim horizontally on one breath and for 60 feet, again I don't know you but I'd bet dollars to donuts that you could ascend safely to the surface from 60 feet. Not that I have faith in you or like my favorite saying, "You'd be surprised what the human body can endure", but simply think of gas expansion.

And finally, stay meticulous and think, anything eaten goes down better with Maggi and a Pepsi. Don't worry about eating your thoughtful words though.

With kindest regards to your wife and you,
Thomas

 

[grf88]

It never ceases to amaze me just how contentious the issue of ponies is. Carrying your own redundant air source just makes good sense when the one thing we cannot do without underwater is a suitable breathing mixture. I use various set ups depending on the dive but redundancy is always part of any dive below 60 feet and sometimes even shallower. My redundancy will take the form of either doubles, a large single with a H-Valve (not fully redundant but close) or a single and a side slung pony.

I dive mostly in cold water and have both had and seen a lot of freeflows even with recently serviced regs that are considered suitable for cold water.

Here is something I posted on this board some time ago on the subject:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/2603184-post140.html

 

[Tom Winters]

Back to the OP - the pony bottle is a great idea for you, especially if it increases your comfort level while diving. Just make sure that you make sure that it's always charged - stuff like is irresistable to people to try in the pool. Or maybe the tires needed topping off. Or something else.
Then when you're at 100', screwing with one last lobster and go to use the thing, you find it's already down to 500psi. This wil always happen on the one single time you didn't check the gauge before you hopped in the water.

 

[Splash-X]

To pony; or, not to pony, that is the question!

All kidding aside, every diver has their conformt level and it is the job of the instructor to find out what the comfort level is for that student and not push them beyond it.

Did your AOW instructor discuss with you why you feel the needs for a pony bottle by asking you why you use it? Just trying to get a feel for how the situation went. While he is the "teacher" he should respect you and your limits and comfort.

If he talks down to you about you're gear or tries to belittle you it's definatly time to move on to another instructor. If it's an open and friendly discussion and he is giving you points for why you really don't need thats a different story.

I've seen instructors both way. In this case, the customer is always right, you're the one diving and it's your choice to dive with or without it. Peer pressure at 56 (just say no man..)

I think the OP's instructor was trying to explain that the pony is a crutch.

And I suppose glow sticks in night diving are a crutch too? (OPs orginal post)


When I'm assisting students, it is our policy to encourage the students to bring all of the gear they would be diving with to the pool so they can practice with all the gear they would be in the real world.

Teaching a student to share air would be different for someone with a pony vs someone with an octo vs someone with an integrated inflator/regulator. Knowing how to do so with YOUR gear is what matters, not with what someone else uses.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I get the impression from some posts on here (not necessarily just this thread) that people can focus on the ideal situation without looking at the realistic applications. A good example of this is saying that you don't need redundant air because you should always be diving with a well-known, competent buddy; but in recreational diving this isn't always easy. Charter boats, dive clubs, etc. often leave you matched up with some stranger when you come alone: should charters and dive clubs only allow buddy pairs to join? Or should you stop diving with a good friend, spouse, whatever because they maybe aren't the perfect buddy?

Ideally, gear will never fail, and normally it doesn't. But it can and does happen. Even if it only happens once in 1000 dives, if that once happens to be when I'm at 130 feet, I'd like insurance better than the air in my buddy's tank that may or may not let us do a safe ascent with an increased SAC.

Ideally everyone will use rock-bottom air time (a concept not even required in OW) and have enough to surface. But in an AOW class where they give you an AL-80 tank, for two heavy breathers to surface with a panicked SAC from 100 feet, to be safe you'd need to abort the dive at 2000 PSI: hardly enough time to do the narcosis test.

Ideally, people will never make a mistake, we will always be perfect divers. But in reality even with proper training, people can and do make mistakes. If I run out of air and can't make it to the surface, it's little comfort that it was my own damn fault. A pony shouldn't be used to encourage reckless behaviour, but everyone makes mistakes, and is the death penalty really an appropriate punishment for someone's mind wandering and forgetting to check their gauge? And remember, you are certified after 4 open water dives: people will make mistakes after this level of training.

Another thing that isn't taken into account in many blanket statements is conditions. While this isn't a concern with a local instructor, blanket statements like "pony's aren't needed in recreational diving" are useless. As I said in a previous post, in spring months a Great Lakes dive charter I've heard REQUIRES a pony to dive off their boat (and these are all rec dives).

Ideally I'll only use my pony in practice drills. But in reality if I need it even once in my entire life, it has paid for itself and the little extra hassle will all be worth it. Everyone has their own comfort level, and it's an arbitrary line where we decide "safe enough": why not have doubles and a pony? However, I don't think anyone should have to feel somewhat guilty/stupid (which is what the instructor it sounds like did: he didn't say "you can't use it" but I'd feel a bit weird wearing it after hearing it talked down and "well I won't force you to take it off") for using one. I'm not saying anyone else should wear one, just that I feel I have good reasons for wearing one.

 

[hudson]

It's been stated that carrying a pony may make you uncomfortable in the water when you don't have one. Probably true for a new diver. Also when the buddy is unreliable, a pony is almost always a necessity. But...

Air consumption has nothing to do with a "Pony" except maybe when picking what size pony to buy.

I don't believe this is true. From my personal experience, a 19cuft pony bottle adds a lot of drag. I haven't done any testing with regards to air consumption, but I know for a fact that my frog kick takes me further without a (slung) pony bottle than with. It's reasonable to assume this translates into increased air consumption.

So that'd be my main reason not to carry a pony - to avoid the increased drag. Otherwise... it's not really an additional point of failure as it's a fully-independent system, so there is no reason not to have one - as long as you are also comfortable without it.