Diver Death in Cayman

[pilot fish]

A few problems with your post, for me anyway. She said he did NOT brief them properly on the dive site but was telling jokes and doing the jive for tips. If he was NOT on THAT boat as a DM, that was not made clear, AND IT IS INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING. It was his IMPRESSION that he WAS buddied with the Dive Guide, At the very least the buddy pairing should have been clear before they went in the water. Are you saying this Dive Guide was buddied with a 16 year old and he was taking that 16 year old to 100 ft? Does a Dive guide have a duty to keep the dive group together? YES. This "DM" even failed as a GUIDE, since he did not EVEN do that properly:depressed:

JUST TELLING THE DIVERS THE DEPTH DOES NOT CONSTITUTRE A DIVE BRIEFING. THERE ARE MORE THINGS TO A BRIEFING THAN DEPTH.

Having briefed the divers for the dive as this Employee clearly did (How else would they know the depths and it was a wall dive?). Where would the resposibility lay if he decided not to guide the dive and stay on the boat? This is something he is entitled to do as his role was not that of a DiveMaster even though everyone uses the term. He was not running or assisting on any courses and so his legal (not moral) responsibilities are not going to be called into question. I can tell the members of this board that the employee in question was not buddied with the Late Mr Neilson but was infact buddied with a 16 year old newly qualified Diver.

Had he been able to do anything without endangering himself or his buddy to help Mr Neilson Do we not think he would have?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Well we certainly have a divide happening. Those that are putting blind faith into one side or the other. The truth is out there people, but rarely is it found in its purist form on ScubaBoard. Just an FYI.

 

[letterboy]

Well we certainly have a divide happening. Those that are putting blind faith into one side or the other. The truth is out there people, but rearely is it found in its purist form on ScubaBoard. Just an FYI.

Rarely, it is spelled RARELY.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Rarely, it is spelled RARELY.

Long since corrected but thanks for participating and adding value

 

[pilot fish]

No blind faith at all and no divide either. The heart of the matter is that a newbie diver was killed and that should not have happened. It appears to me, from both sides of this acciedent, that things were NOT clear and the role of DM v. Dive Guide was very vague. He failed in either category, he did not guide, and he did not keep group together, to the point this "DM" even had his divers at different depths. he did not strongly advice newbie not to go to that depth. "DM" was even taking a young 16 yr old diver who had not been in the water for a year, to a 100 ft. What was this "DM" thinking of, besides tips, that is?

Well we certainly have a divide happening. Those that are putting blind faith into one side or the other. The truth is out there people, but rearely is it found in its purist form on ScubaBoard. Just an FYI.

 

[netmage]

What about personal responsibility, and self 'duty of care'...

GC is a big rock sticking up 6000' from the ocean floor.... It's all one big wall dive...
Quit looking to blame all the ils on someone else...

 

[GaryLee]

A few problems with your post, for me anyway. She said he did NOT brief them properly on the dive site but was telling jokes and doing the jive for tips. If he was NOT on THAT boat as a DM, that was not made clear, AND IT IS INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING. It was his IMPRESSION that he WAS buddied with the Dive Guide, At the very least the buddy pairing should have been clear before they went in the water. Are you saying this Dive Guide was buddied with a 16 year old and he was taking that 16 year old to 100 ft? Does a Dive guide have a duty to keep the dive group together? YES. This "DM" even failed as a GUIDE, since he did not EVEN do that properly:depressed:

JUST TELLING THE DIVERS THE DEPTH DOES NOT CONSTITUTRE A DIVE BRIEFING. THERE ARE MORE THINGS TO A BRIEFING THAN DEPTH.

Now it seems to me that people are misunderstanding the role of a guide on a guided dive and that of a DiveMaster on a sanctioned course. They are two completely different roles. We all call our guides ťiveMasters but there is no reason why they should be legally as they are only there for Guidance. We have tour Guides around Museums showing us the interesting bits. We have Guides around Cities showing us the best bits. But should we choose not to follow them and pop into a pub for a beer or linger at an exhibition is it their responsibility to stop us and keep the group together?
How many of us have left the crowd to see something in more detail? As long as the guide has set a maximum time for the dive and briefed the dive sufficiently so that all understand it he has no duty whatsoever to herd a group together. I would be livid if a guide did that to me whilst I was enjoying my dive with my buddy. Divers have different reasons for diving such as Macro Photography which takes time. What should that guide do when one buddy pair wants to take pictures and another wants to get to the Feeding station?

What of the impression of Mr Neilson with regard to his Dive Buddy. The Guide clearly stated who his buddy was going to be. This will be shown as fact. The problem will be showing that there was any impression from Mr Neilson as unfortunately he cannot tell us. (I for one wish he could and was here right now) There were 5 divers besides the Guide that day. The Guide buddied with Mr X. Pam and fosterboxermom in her own words told the Guide that they were buddying up as they wanted to dive at a shallower depth. That leaves Mr Neilson and one other diver so either they were both ÅÖnder the impression they were buddying with the Guide or there is a misunderstanding with what fosterboxermom believes were the buddy pairs.

 

[ScubaSteve]

but you cannot sign your heir's rights away.

That right there is the problem IMNSHO. Today, we live in a world where people are preoccupied with taking the easy way out or getting the quick fix or immediate gratification or whatever you want to call it. People race through life and when something goes wrong, they immediately look to blame somebody else. People will also often times also look to see if they can make "somebody pay" - often financially and not revenge - which leads back to the easy life. Perhaps I have become nothing more than a large cynic but I wish people would stop immediately thinking that "a burnt lip from hot coffee entitles them to financial compensation" and start thinking more about situational awareness and what is required to maintain safety. Let the coffee COOL before drinking. If you need to read the outside of a coffee cup while driving to know the contents may be (or likely are) HOT....PUll over, turn off the car, wander into the forest and never return because you are hazard to not only yourself but everybody else out there.

The fault in this incident IMO falls 100% squarely on the shoulders of all three parties (Diver, Dive Guide/Master and Dive OP). Mistakes were made it seems and unfortunately somebody's loved one has left them behind emotionally broken. This is terrible but the reality is that all parties are likely just as guilty as the others.

 

[pilot fish]

Interesting how you are NOW calling the "DM" a Dive GUIDE. Is that was he was referred to at sign in? Didn't think so. Do YOU know for a fact that was made clear to ALL the divers? There is evidence he did not even perform the duty of GUIDE either. The comparison and DUTY of Museum Guide and Dive Guide are vastly diffently, since no one gets killed wandering away at the Museum, but it can happen to a newbie diver in the water. You do see the difference, right?

You think it was appropriate for this "DM"/ "Guide" to take a newbie diver and a 16 yr old who had not been in the water for a year to 100 ft wall dive with many hundreds of feet below them, with very iffy bouyancy?
It is also clear that GUIDE, as you call him, did NOT make much clear and did NOT hold a sufficient pre dive briefing. That fact will be borne out by other divers on that boat.

Now it seems to me that people are misunderstanding the role of a guide on a guided dive and that of a DiveMaster on a sanctioned course. They are two completely different roles. We all call our guides ťiveMasters but there is no reason why they should be legally as they are only there for Guidance. We have tour Guides around Museums showing us the interesting bits. We have Guides around Cities showing us the best bits. But should we choose not to follow them and pop into a pub for a beer or linger at an exhibition is it their responsibility to stop us and keep the group together?
How many of us have left the crowd to see something in more detail? As long as the guide has set a maximum time for the dive and briefed the dive sufficiently so that all understand it he has no duty whatsoever to herd a group together. I would be livid if a guide did that to me whilst I was enjoying my dive with my buddy. Divers have different reasons for diving such as Macro Photography which takes time. What should that guide do when one buddy pair wants to take pictures and another wants to get to the Feeding station?

What of the impression of Mr Neilson with regard to his Dive Buddy. The Guide clearly stated who his buddy was going to be. This will be shown as fact. The problem will be showing that there was any impression from Mr Neilson as unfortunately he cannot tell us. (I for one wish he could and was here right now) There were 5 divers besides the Guide that day. The Guide buddied with Mr X. Pam and fosterboxermom in her own words told the Guide that they were buddying up as they wanted to dive at a shallower depth. That leaves Mr Neilson and one other diver so either they were both ÅÖnder the impression they were buddying with the Guide or there is a misunderstanding with what fosterboxermom believes were the buddy pairs.

 

[letterboy]

Long since corrected but thanks for participating and adding value

I am always trying to add some value to all threads I participate in . . .