Zero to hero Divemaster program in 30 days - thoughts?

[boulderjohn]

I (based on what I know of Thal) believe he could indeed train and graduate a competent Dive Master or Instructor in a short time. I also believe he would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job.

I am more of the "you're not there yet--keep working" school of instruction than a fail-in-mid-course kind of guy, but I do not hesitate to agree that Thal or someone with similar credentials could do that job.

 

[rjack321]

I see you point, really I do but I have to ask, is there no place in your paradigm for apprentices? I highly doubt any newly minted Instructor/Dive master leaves the course with 100% compentancy. Everyone gains experience and learns better on the job in real circumstances.

I (based on what I know of Thal) believe he could indeed train and graduate a competent Dive Master or Instructor in a short time. I also believe he would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job.

Good point. I think there is plenty of room for "on the job" mentoring/learning etc. And I even think this could be done in a couple months or a month if relatively intense. And it could happen in as few as 15 to 30 dives of on the job work (not for the newly certified)

I just think in general the minimum "base" for DM's (and instructors) is just way too low. If I had to put numbers to it, I would say for DMs, 200 dives in at least 2 different environments/locations. For instructors, 500 dives in at least 4 different environments.

People who hire a 60dive DM (or get assigned one) or a low budget 150dive instructor don't know what they are missing. But they generally miss out on all the little things that make diving FUN. More experienced leaders (across the board) would be able to impart more fun to their leading/instruction/classes/skills/etc and create more divers in the process instead of more cards.

For the record, I am toying with the DM/AI route now, with about 700 dives under my belt in 8-9 different places including full cave and normoxic trimix. I am not a nervous nilly, but I just now feel like I have the skills and experience to genuinely lead. In many practical ways I actually have more experience than my instructors, and I am leading/organizing technical wreck and cave trips together already. So the DM dealio is really more of a mutually supportive team effort than a class per se.

 

[Thalassamania]

I see you point, really I do but I have to ask, is there no place in your paradigm for apprentices? I highly doubt any newly minted Instructor/Dive master leaves the course with 100% competancy. Everyone gains experience and learns better on the job in real circumstances.

I (based on what I know of Thal) believe he could indeed train and graduate a competent Dive Master or Instructor in a short time. I also believe he would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job.

I appreciate your confidence; you are correct that I would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job, but it would be my hope to determine a candidate's unsuitability in the first day rather than later.

 

[Diver0001]

I don't see how even one individual (or institution unless its very large) can train a competent DM/AI (depending on their hat de jour). Unless you are just training up mini me's. The whole point of the leadership curriculum is to lead and be a role model. And absent any outside experiences, a 60 dive, one shop, never travelled DM just can't do that. When their vacation diver clients have been 10x more places and more (dive)life experience to boot, that's a red flag.

I wouldn't get too uptight about the experience thing. I've dived with DM's who were less experienced than I am and it's never bothered me. I don't really care and never see any reason to get my back up. This whole comparing hat sizes thing is lost on me. Under water it's just a group of divers and the DM is just another diver.

Either way I would think even a beginning DM would generally have more experience than the people who really need it.

R..

 

[Web Monkey]

It looks like a moot point. The website (and I suspect the program) no longer exists.

Terry

 

[rjack321]

I wouldn't get too uptight about the experience thing. I've dived with DM's who were less experienced than I am and it's never bothered me. I don't really care and never see any reason to get my back up. This whole comparing hat sizes thing is lost on me. Under water it's just a group of divers and the DM is just another diver.

Either way I would think even a beginning DM would generally have more experience than the people who really need it.

R..

I have seen quite a few poor DMs. One bolted on the group when he ran low on gas. Some have gone into deco (on a single Al80 of air in 43F water) while the guests dove nitrox. One tried to lead his nitrox diving clients below their MOD.

I guess I have seen enough cases where the DM was a liability not an asset that I go out of my way to find diving trip/vacations/etc. without them.

BTW, the best one was actually on a Blackbeard's charter to the Bahamas. Yes he was in the water with clients as a buddy, a leader, and a guide depending on the dive.

re the hat thing:
one role for DM is as a dive boat guide, typical in the Caribbean
one role is as an AI in classes, typical in my area

I don't doubt that a 60day DM could be an effective AI for the instructor who trained them.

I do doubt a 60day DM could be wise enough, in that short a timeframe with scant worldliness, to be the resident "expert" on a boat leading a diverse group of divers in a variety of conditions.

 

[Thalassamania]

...

I do doubt a 60day DM could be wise enough, in that short a timeframe with scant worldliness, to be the resident "expert" on a boat leading a diverse group of divers in a variety of conditions.

No question that the AI type DM would be easy to create in 120 hours. You are right that the boat DM would be more of a challenge, but I honestly think that with care and attention to detail; with a program designed from day one (for example, at the same time you are teaching the student to mask clear you are also introducing identification and solution of mask clearing problems) it could still be done. Not easy, but possible, with a good student.

 

[nilsdiver]

We are offering training from Public Safety PROS, who are also PADI pros, no standards are being breached. A DM is a Professional not a layman, yet he is using layman skills, CPR and AED are for the layman not the pro. Most remote international resorts do not have staff trained to the level of the US, and we seek to change that.

Forgetting the zero to hero aspect - this point by the original poster is what really interested me. A PADI DM has taken the rescue class once and has taken CPR/First Aid in the last 2 years.

Based on information from my local Red Cross's www page this means:
Adult CRP/First Aid - 6.5 hours
AED - 1 hour

The life guard down at the local pool is required to have this training:

CPR/AED for Lifeguards (LPRO) - 8 hours

This course covers recognizing and caring for breathing and cardiac emergencies, two rescuer CPR, use of resuscitation mask and bag-valve mask.
​

Title 22 (Emergency Response/First Aid) - 15 hours

This course trains firefighters, peace officers, lifeguards, public personnel and other first responders in the knowledge and skills necessary to help sustain life, reduce pain, and minimize the consequences of injury or sudden illness until more advanced medical help can arrive in accordance with the requirement of Title 22 of California Code of Regulations.
​

Seems odd to my that a DM is not required to have more training in this area. Who do you want to be your surface support, the brand new DM or the brand new life guard?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

BTW, the best one was actually on a Blackbeard's charter to the Bahamas. Yes he was in the water with clients as a buddy, a leader, and a guide depending on the dive.

...


I do doubt a 60day DM could be wise enough, in that short a timeframe with scant worldliness, to be the resident "expert" on a boat leading a diverse group of divers in a variety of conditions.

After a few months of working full time on a 2 to 4 dive per day charter boat the 30 day DM should be an able "resident expert" on his boat. If all the hands on the boat are equally green with regards to the conditions that's pushing your luck.

The DM position would need to pay much better for there to be working DM's of the caliber you all seem to think you deserve.

My former co-worker who worked for Blackbeards was a graduate of ProDive, and ProDive is who got him the job (gauranteed job placement!).

Wouldn't it be ironic is the DM you praise was actually a zero to hero

 

[rjack321]

After a few months of working full time on a 2 to 4 dive per day charter boat the 30 day DM should be an able "resident expert" on his boat. If all the hands on the boat are equally green with regards to the conditions that's pushing your luck

Sure and in the meantime clients get?? Is a DM cert a learner's permit or a demonstrated capacity? I think it should be a demonstrated capacity and while there might be a rare student+institution that can move a highly gifted individual through a program in 6-8 weeks I don't think that should be the norm or even advertised as an option to a non-diver.

The DM position would need to pay much better for there to be working DM's of the caliber you all seem to think you deserve.

Well, if there were fewer, more capable ones and the whole program/industry truly rewarded leadership and wisdom vs. being the next card after rescue then they might be more valuable.

My former co-worker who worked for Blackbeards was a graduate of ProDive, and ProDive is who got him the job (gauranteed job placement!).

Wouldn't it be ironic is the DM you praise was actually a zero to hero

I don't think Prodive has a zero-to-hero program. And the 60day course offering that started this thread's discussion has been yanked.