Do I really need AOW for diving with charters going to sites for depth below 60'?

[Steve50]

PADI Prerequisite Certification:

Section #1:

To participate in the rescue training sessions in confined water only, the student must be certified as a PADI Open Water Diver or have a qualifying certification from another training organization. This is defined as proof of certification as an entry-level diver with at least four required training dives.

Section #2:

To participate in the rescue training sessions in open water, and to participate in the open water rescue scenarios, the student must be certified as a PADI Advanced Open Water Diver or have a qualifying certification from another training organization. This is defined as proof of certification beyond entry level (at least two certifications total), with proof of 20 or more logged dives documenting experience in deep diving and underwater navigation.

Certification:

Section #2:

To qualify for PADI rescue Diver certification, student divers must be certified as a PADI Advanced Open WAter Diver or have a qualifying certification from another training organization.

the K

update

To qualify for PADI Rescue Diver certification, student divers must
hold, as a minimum, a PADI Adventure Diver certification (with
Underwater Navigation Adventure Dive) or have a qualifying certification​

from another training organization.

 

[rrweather]

Can you imagine the lawsuit that would ensue if a charter operator let anyone do any dive off of their boat and someone got hurt? Despite any waivers the shop makes you sign, if they didn't make an attempt at verifying your certifications, they would be opening up a can of worms if you got hurt on a dive you were not certified to do. It would be like you going to test drive a car, the dealer handing you the keys without verifying you have a license, and you going out and killing yourself in the car. The dealer would be screwed. The dealer doesn't really care how well you drive, who taught you to drive, or how long you've been driving, they just need to know that someone (a dmv) certified you to drive.

The boat operator can't possibly know how good of a diver you are. The realistic approach is to verify that some agency certified you to dive for that particular dive. You can argue all day about whether or not the agencies provide good training or if you are a better diver after the course but the dive operator isn't the agency. They can only do so much. If people have issues with the material being taught, find a better instructor or a different agency. Or, say screw the agencies and go dive on your own; just don't be pissed off when charter boats require you to provide proof of training to dive with them. In this day and age, you can't blame a boat owner (or anyone for that matter) for trying to cover their ass.

 

[scubadada]

This has been an interesting ScubaBoard thread. It veered far from the original question to the common fight between various training agencies and philosophies, many of the comments from posters with a strong vested interest (some with perceived, potential, or real conflicts of interest).

Do you need AOW or recent deep dives to make same? Sometimes yes, you should probabably check to ensure you will not be excluded. To avoid possibly missing these dives, having AOW is a permanent fix.

The only truly frightening dives I have had were with newly minted AOW divers with 9 or a few more dives under challenging conditions exceeding their capabilities and experience. These dives placed them and, at times, me, under potentially dangerous circumstances

A reasonable amount of training and extensive experience makes for the most skilled divers. Diving within ones capabilities is a good demonstration of sound judgement.

Good diving, Craig

 

[Firefyter]

You don't have to have AOW to get Rescue, but you do have to have AOW to get PADI Rescue. PADI's not the only option.

Exactly my point. Other agencies allow the instructor to evaluate the student and make the determination. An OW diver with a sufficient skill level does not need to waste his time and money on a worthless piece of plastic that says AOW.

 

[farsidefan1]

In response to the ORIGINAL QUESTION: I have been with operations in Belize, Roatan, the Bahamas, GBR, Fiji, the red sea, Tahiti, and have never had to produce a log book. My first dive in the ocean (one week after getting open water cert) I was in Belize going into a 100 foot "swimthrough" and popping out at 95 ft. My wife with 30 dives and only open water dove with me in Fiji at the great white wall (105 ft.) No one asked for anything. I have added the aow & nitrox, and will be taking wreck diving in a few weeks. But as to the question - it is very unlikely you will actually have to provide hard evidence anywhere outside of the USA.

 

[DaleC]

Cousteau told us that the oceans belong to each of us; all mankind. Then somebody decided to set up a toll booth, and got away with it.

Good news, the oceans are still free! Just buy a compressor and a boat and dive till you drop. You only have to follow someone elses rules if you want to use someone elses services.

An OW diver with a sufficient skill level does not need to waste his time and money on a worthless piece of plastic that says AOW.

Unless you want to do certain dives on certain charter boats.


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The question is: How do you cover your butt if you are the charter operator?

a.) Let anyone, dive anywhere, any time, and hope that nothing ever goes wrong and you never face litigation. The ol' stick your head in the sand approach.

b.) Check out each potential diver individually, doing a pre charter, check out dive and putting them through a skills test that you personally monitor. Perhaps, to save time, you could do those assessments ahead of time and issue some sort of ID that lets you know they meet the minimum requirements. Perhaps calling it an "advanced open water" card.

c.) Follow the guidelines of the largest recreational dive certification agency on the planet, ensuring that divers have the correct qualifications for the dives that they will be doing.

In the real world, where time is money and your families assets are at stake, which course of action would you take?

The question isn't whether divers are capable of doing dives beyond their certification level. It isn't about the individual at all. It's about how charter operators do/don't attempt to cover their butts in case of litigation and how they provide the best diving conditions for the majority of their customers.

 

[Walter]

Despite any waivers the shop makes you sign, if they didn't make an attempt at verifying your certifications, they would be opening up a can of worms if you got hurt on a dive you were not certified to do.

Then they shouldn't be telling people an AOW card qualifies them to dive to 100 feet. It doesn't. They are in a much better position, liability wise, to admit "can't possibly know how good of a diver you are" and let you make the determination of your ability to make a particular dive than to accept the role of telling you you are qualified to make a particular dive (because you have an AOW card) when anyone examining your history would know you clearly are not qualified. By accepting the responsibility of determining which divers are qualified to make which dive, you are opening yourself up to a great deal of liability. The only way to mitigate that liabilty is to actually check out a diver's experience (AOW card or not) by examining their logbook and/or giving them a check out dive. Your argument simply doesn't hold water.

Most places I've dived, in the US and out, have a system pretty much as I've described and do not seem to have any problems with it. Requiring an AOW card for a particular dive is a bad policy, liability wise, because the AOW card is pretty much meaningless.

The question is: How do you cover your butt if you are the charter operator?

Agreed. The practical way to do that is not to set yourself up as a judge of someone's ability. Let them judge their own ability. The other option is to spend a great deal of time checking out each diver's experience and/or ability to dive.

Unless you want to do certain dives on certain charter boats.

Not necessarily, there are other options. Search for and take a class that actually teaches something, such as LA County's Advance Diver Program or SEI Divings Advanced Plus or a class with an instructor who goes way above the requirements of AOW.

 

[rrweather]

Then they shouldn't be telling people an AOW card qualifies them to dive to 100 feet. It doesn't. They are in a much better position, liability wise, to admit "can't possibly know how good of a diver you are" and let you make the determination of your ability to make a particular dive than to accept the role of telling you you are qualified to make a particular dive (because you have an AOW card) when anyone examining your history would know you clearly are not qualified. By accepting the responsibility of determining which divers are qualified to make which dive, you are opening yourself up to a great deal of liability. The only way to mitigate that liabilty is to actually check out a diver's experience (AOW card or not) by examining their logbook and/or giving them a check out dive. Your argument simply doesn't hold water.

Most places I've dived, in the US and out, have a system pretty much as I've described and do not seem to have any problems with it. Requiring an AOW card for a particular dive is a bad policy, liability wise, because the AOW card is pretty much meaningless.



Agreed. The practical way to do that is not to set yourself up as a judge of someone's ability. Let them judge their own ability. The other option is to spend a great deal of time checking out each diver's experience and/or ability to dive.



Not necessarily, there are other options. Search for and take a class that actually teaches something, such as LA County's Advance Diver Program or SEI Divings Advanced Plus or a class with an instructor who goes way above the requirements of AOW.

Unfortunately, our society is getting further and further away from individual responsibility. One of the first things we are taught in diving is to not dive beyond our abilities. Everyone probably thinks "no kidding" when they are taught it; yet, how many accidents are caused by divers diving beyond their ability? Peer pressure, the pressure to "get your money's worth" on a vacation or a charter, and a whole list of other reasons drive people to make bad decisions. I wish we lived in a world where the charter operator could say "dive here if you think you can." But realistically, the first person to get hurt would say "I thought I could dive there" or "why did the charter operator take me to a place I couldn't dive." We live in a world that has a "it can't be my fault" mentality.

Because I was bored, I googled dive accidents and lawsuits. There was a page where an attorney summarized a good 10-15 lawsuits that involved charter operators (defendants) and divers (plaintiffs). Some of the outcomes were expected--there were a few lost divers with charter operators not conducting a proper search and the person drowning. Not surprising that the charter lost those cases. There were instances where the liability release was deemed "too vague" and thrown out by the court. After reading this stuff, I'm surprised you don't have to bring an attorney with you just to sign the release.

 

[Steve50]

After reading this stuff, I'm surprised you don't have to bring an attorney with you just to sign the release.

Best just to send your attorney diving for you and she can let you know how it went.

 

[Walter]

Unfortunately, our society is getting further and further away from individual responsibility.

Since you started with "unfortunately," I'm guessing you agree with me that thisd is a bad thing. So don't contribute to the process. Use operators who do not babysit divers. Avoid those who do.

how many accidents are caused by divers diving beyond their ability?

I don't know, but I do know I'd much rather defend myself in a case where the diver decided on his own to exceed his abilities than one in which I told him he was qualified to make the dive.