My buddy claims he was not narced at 135' (45m)....

[mojokelt]

Hi all.

At the end of last year we did a dive to the wreck of the Ringwall in the Isle of Man.

Divernet | Wreck Tours | WRECK TOUR: 84, The Ringwall...

We were diving on air. This was on a very high spring tide and we ended up at the sea bed at 45m/135'. While we there we were to try to recover another diver's reel that had been tied there, if possible.

When we got there I was very aware of the narcosis I was feeling (exactly like the books say, the martini effect!) and decided that trying to recover a reel and line was not a good idea and so we headed up and away from the sea bed and eventually surfaced after an uneventful dive.

As we talked about the dive I apologised to the other diver and explained that I had felt that due to the narcosis, untying his reel and/or cutting his line was too dangerous. My buddy added something to the conversation that I have questioned ever since....

"I had no problems. I wasn't narced at all. I could have got the reel."

I have questioned and doubted this ever since, debating my buddy until we're both blue in the face. He maintains that he had little or no narcosis.

Is it possible for someone with no history of deep diving to have no narcosis at this depth on air?

There may be other medical factors as he takes some form of medication daily - don't know what it is, however. Surely if there were anti-narcosis meds we'd all take them to save money on all that helium!

Thanks for any insight you can offer,

MJK

 

[BDSC]

Like your buddy, I would have had no problem getting the reel at 135'. Personally, I don't have a problem with narcosis at that depth. (Assume normal rec time limits) I realize that the nitrogen is building up in my body/tissue/blood, but the actual affect that has on me is so minimal that I can't notice it. I believe narcosis is different for different people. Papers/studies have been written that show some divers experience no symptoms of narcosis at the depth you are talking about.

 

[don Francisco]

Divers vary greatly in the degree that they feel narcosis, there can also be large variations in the same diver on different dives.

Moreover narc-ing isn't digital, as in you're either narced or not. It's a spectrum, so while your buddy might have been feeling some effect, it might have been within a range he felt was manageable.

The best indicator that your buddy was OK, is that he was willing to accomodate your decision and come up shallower with you, abandoning the quest for the reel. I'd gladly dive with him anytime, and let him be the judge of his own condition.

 

[SteveAD]

Another point to consider is that self evaluation is likely to affected my narcosis. How many times have we seen a drunk claim to be fine to drive? The only way to be certain that someone else is narced is to witness them doing something that proves it, but I don't think it's possible to be certain that someone was NOT narced at that depth. He may have been LESS impaired, or he may have been less aware.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Usually the guys that say "I'm not narc'd" are usually narc'd the worst, mainly because they are narc'd and don't recognize it...

 

[don Francisco]

Narc'd is as narc'd does.

Whether your buddy was narc'd and "in denial" or wasn't narc'd in the first place is a mute point. He was sufficiently in control to support and accomodate your needs and properly manage the dive, and that's what counts.

Just as you needn't apologize for or rationalize your desire to move to a shallower depth, he shouldn't have to explain how or somehow prove that he wasn't narc'd at the 135' level. He might very well have been 100% OK, so unless you have specific reasons to think otherwise you should take his word at face value.

You have a good, supportive dive buddy, something hard to find, and you shouldn't sour your relationship by doubting his judgement or looking for something that isn't there.

Using the drunk driver analogy: if, after a few drinks, someone puts away his car keys and opts for a cab claiming he's really OK, but just doesn't want to run into an overzealous cop, does it matter how drunk he might or might not actually be?

 

[mojokelt]

Thanks all.

Going by the classic effects I felt, I know that he would easily have recognised the narcosis if he felt it, and he's not the type to deny something just to be macho etc. I don't mean to sound like I think he's lying! Any time we have a problem on a dive we discuss it thoroughly, as we did in this case.

I absolutely trust my buddy and have no problem diving with him its just that I thought that everyone would feel at least some narcosis at that depth. It's more that angle that I was interested in rather than in a specific analysis of this case or my buddy. I'm seeking information, not trying to get people to help me beat up on my buddy!:shocked2:

I guess I was just unsure as to whether the narcosis is a physiological certainty at that depth or if, as seems the case, that it varies extremely widely from person to person.

MJK

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I generally will feel zero narcosis at that depth. If I work hard and swim hard, I might feel a little buzzed. I have to work hard below 180 (on air) to get really buzzed, lips and tongue start to go numb and it becomes noticably harder to "see the big picture" when you look around.

At 135 ft some people will not feel buzzed at all, but if they are not expereinced at diving at that depth and have to "think" about diving then they will notice it. If you are just doing simple, non strenuous tasks that you've done hundreds of times before, the narcosis is usually not a big deal at all. The problem only arises, when you have a problem and you have to do novel problems solving and at those depths, workload, air consumption, decompression clock etc. can make little problems worrisone.

 

[alexxred]

Diving on air at that depth, everyone is going to be narced to some degree. Your not going to function as well you would on the surface. How noticeable this is, and how much it impacts on your ability to carry out tasks from one person to another, and from one dive to the next.

Three weeks ago I did a dive to 42m and was more narced than I have ever been. I kept checking my gauges then forgetting to actually read them. I really felt like I was in a daze. My next dive was down to 55m (reverse profiling not a good idea) but I felt quite clear headed.

 

[samaka]

Narced or not has nothing to do with what you feel. The Nitrogen Narcosis is a physical law which there is no way to escape any more than the effect alcohol has on your system. Divers claiming that they are not narced is also the same kind of people who would say "I only had two beer. I can drive".

The whole point with the deep dive training is to help divers understand just that: You are narced even if you don't feel it. During AOW courses I teach I always tell my student that the Deep Dive is not about determine if you are narced. It's about getting you to realise that you are. Knowing the signs and symtoms of nitrogen narcosis is important so you know that you are narced and can deal with that in a stressful situation.

There is a Swedish physician and Deco Chamber Expert who has collected data over the last couple of decades and he has written in an article that he see signs of Nitrogen Narcosis on everyone as early as 20 metres and some cases as early as 8 metres! Everybody gets narced and on 45 metres it's at a level that any buddy can see even if the diver himself has no idea.

It's easy to test though. Next time you're on 45 metres with him ask him how much air he's got and then ask him to divide this amount in half. Obviously you need to go through hand signals for this in advanced. Note that it will take him some extra time to do the math when halving his air supply, maybe three four seconds, also he will most likely check his gauge again when asked to half his air. This means that it takes longer time to perform simple skills which can be deadly in a OOA situation. It also means a short-term memory loss which is a bad thing when you need to stay within NDL limits which is something you run out of quickly on 45 metres.

Good divers know that they are narced and bad divers don't, all divers are.

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