What does "Experience" really mean?

[msg]

Experience is a difficult thing to evaluate. I tend to think of it as being able to put your knowledge to work effectively. I would agree that if you do not stay in practice, it is more difficult to use the skills that were taught in the early years.

More generally, experience will only come by doing something more and more.

 

[TSandM]

"Scared to death, " he told me. "But I've kinda' gotten used to that."

Oh, this resonates for me. I think a lot of the reason I've gotten as far as I have with my diving is that my real life job is what it is. As we said about the second year of residency, by the end of it you've had your panic button pushed so many times it doesn't work any more. I'd much rather be in the water with a less experienced person with the kind of temperament that stays calm and rational and keeps thinking through a problem, than somebody with a ton of experience who rattles easily. One of the most uncomfortable dives I've ever done was a new buddy who appeared to get close to panic when their head went underwater while they were putting their fins on. I almost called the dive right there, in the shallows.

 

[rstofer]

This whole issue revolves around the concept of buddy diving. How about we just eliminate that idea? I never liked it anyway.

Dive to your own capabilities, be prepared to self-rescue and, beyond that, it is simply 'same ocean, same day'. It eliminates all those 'how long do I search' questions and it clears up the issue of whether to make a safety stop on ascent.

This whole buddy check on the surface; what nonsense! I know it's heresy but what do I care if my buddy does or doesn't put air in their BC or even turns on the valve? Sure, I guess you could point out that someone might have to rescue the person but I guarantee they'll never forget again. But I absolutely do NOT want them, or anyone else, to check my valve. I have seen the results of that debacle when another diver decided to check my buddy's valve and managed to turn it off. We had a great time when he jumped in and sank in strong current!

As to gear familiarity? Well, if they have a wetsuit, their gear won't be a lot different than mine. There's only so many ways to rig a backup reg and not too many ways to set up weights. If they have a drysuit, they better dive with someone else because I have no idea how to control the ascent.

I really think the agencies should just teach solo diving and call it even. There is absolutely no reason to trust your life to another person, especially one you don't even know. Become totally self-reliant, right from the start.

If you don't make mistakes, you won't need saving!

As you might imagine, it is not in my nature to trust people. I've gotten by this long by making my own decisions and it's working out pretty well.

Note: I'm more than 50% serious!

Richard

 

[Cave Diver]

Dive to your own capabilities, be prepared to self-rescue

<snip>

There is absolutely no reason to trust your life to another person, especially one you don't even know. Become totally self-reliant, right from the start.

If you don't make mistakes, you won't need saving!

I strongly agree with your first sentiment.

I also agree that that its up to you, as an individual, thinking diver, to be responsible for your own safety.

To err is human.

 

[Puffer Fish]

This whole issue revolves around the concept of buddy diving. How about we just eliminate that idea? I never liked it anyway.

Dive to your own capabilities, be prepared to self-rescue and, beyond that, it is simply 'same ocean, same day'. It eliminates all those 'how long do I search' questions and it clears up the issue of whether to make a safety stop on ascent.

This whole buddy check on the surface; what nonsense! I know it's heresy but what do I care if my buddy does or doesn't put air in their BC or even turns on the valve? Sure, I guess you could point out that someone might have to rescue the person but I guarantee they'll never forget again. But I absolutely do NOT want them, or anyone else, to check my valve. I have seen the results of that debacle when another diver decided to check my buddy's valve and managed to turn it off. We had a great time when he jumped in and sank in strong current!

As to gear familiarity? Well, if they have a wetsuit, their gear won't be a lot different than mine. There's only so many ways to rig a backup reg and not too many ways to set up weights. If they have a drysuit, they better dive with someone else because I have no idea how to control the ascent.

I really think the agencies should just teach solo diving and call it even. There is absolutely no reason to trust your life to another person, especially one you don't even know. Become totally self-reliant, right from the start.

If you don't make mistakes, you won't need saving!

As you might imagine, it is not in my nature to trust people. I've gotten by this long by making my own decisions and it's working out pretty well.

Note: I'm more than 50% serious!

Richard

Richard,

Dive enough and you will have some issue that you could use some help with.... well, unless you are very, very lucky.

Likewise, you will eventually be diving with someone that has some sudden issue come up.

I have never been with a buddy that ran out of air...and don't expect it ever will.

But I have had to donate air to someone more than a dozen times.

I don't plan on any of my or my buddy's gear failing.. but I have had my inflator blow up (bubble in the casting), my second stage fall apart while at 100 ft (damage done by a dive master) and my regulator go into an uncontrolled free flow (spring in second stage had a forming flaw in it).

None of those happened in my first 1,000 dives.

Sometimes experience is knowing that not everything is in your control

 

[lemon]

If you don't make mistakes, you won't need saving!

sounds like hubris to me, but I understand your sentiment.

 

[rstofer]

sounds like hubris to me, but I understand your sentiment.

Hubris? Maybe...

Of the few dozen misadventures I had read about, all of them start with an obvious diver error. Diving too deep, staying too long, ascending too fast, predictable equipment failure based on known deficiencies, things like these. I don't doubt for a minute that random perversity crops up but it should be way down the list.

An appropriately sized pony bottle and a lift bag cover a wide range of equipment failures and even the OOG diver error for which there is NO excuse. Why do we keep talking about OOG emergencies? There is no reason for these to ever occur. Yet we keep haggling over them as though they are a daily occurrence. At least for what I consider recreational diving (no planned deco), it is fairly trivial to check the SPG once in a while. More often if you are deep.

Solo diving is now an established specialty (SDI) so the constraints should be well understood. Now all we need to do is push that training down to OW or AOW so that everybody has access. I prefer to see it pushed down to OW so that every single diver is self-sufficient when they do their first non-training dive. Not gonna happen!

The thing about buddy diving is that it leads a diver to believe that no thought about risks and contingencies is necessary because their buddy will always be there to save them. That is the essence of all OW training classes. Your buddy this... Your buddy that... But there is no good reason to believe that a buddy has any capability in this regard whatsoever. A better plan is to be prepared to take care of yourself.

There are hobbies like flying and sky-diving where you just don't have a buddy. One way or the other, you will come down. You are singularly responsible for your safety. There are vocations with similar characteristics - the electrical trade comes to mind (after surviving 40 years of it).

I guess where I am coming from is this: Agencies make diving seem like a safe sport/hobby. No big deal, spend 20 hours in training and you are good to go! Don't give a moment's thought to all of the possible catastrophes because you will always have a buddy to save you. At least for flying and sky-diving, the risks are well known right up front - you're coming down. But diving is made to seem like a cute and cuddly way to pass the time watching the pretty fish and drinking kool-aid.

I do understand that there are team events like cave diving but that's not what I am talking about. I'm just thinking about ordinary recreational (no planned deco) diving to reasonable depths.

I also understand that if you dive long enough, something bad will happen. Well, if you live long enough, something really bad will happen.

Richard

 

[lemon]

Well, if you live long enough, something really bad will happen.

hehe, i like that one.

what did you mean by a lift bag being useful in an equipment failure? that's a new one to me and i'm curious.

 

[Cave Diver]

hehe, i like that one.

what did you mean by a lift bag being useful in an equipment failure? that's a new one to me and i'm curious.

Off the top of my head:

Shooting a bag can be used to signal dive boat that there's a problem.

It can be used to track a diver if they get blown off site.

It can be used for redundant lift in event of a wing failure.

 

[funkcanna]

Experience and skill / ability are two very different animals - often they go hand in hand, but there are alot times when they dont.

Too many people link number of dives (i.e. experience) with skill - its almost a general consensus that sub 50 or 100 divers are not as good as those above this number. This is extremely wrong. I have seen divers with a handful of dives dive rings around those with higher numbers. Ive also seen high number divers who have no bouyancy control at all and are a risk to themselves and others.

For me, ability and skill are much more important that how many dives someone has done. Yes, alot of skill is obtained by experiencing different environments etc but some people are just naturally skilled and these are the people I choose to dive with, regardless of number of dives.