Tipping your instructor

[mpgunner]

Let's not forget the other way to tip ==> Buy the beer afterwards. That is always a big hit with our group.

 

[NudeDiver]

There sole compensation is 1 dive per trip and whatever tips that the customers leave.

So - they find the arrangement to their benefit in some way, certainly better than some other alternative, knowing that some people will tip whatever, and some people will not.

They are not required to do more than set the anchor and offer general assistance. If they do more than is required by their employer

A lot of people think that the requirements, details and payment structure of one's employment is a matter between the employee, and the employer.

A 5% tip to a dm for good service on trip is minimal

But why is it based off a percentage at all? If the employee performs X,Y and Z "special services" - why does the value of those services vary in respect to the value of some other services, for which you paid their employer?

Ya pretty sure tipping is here to stay. I know which industry is a tipping related industry and which isnt.

These days, EVERYONE has their hand out for money. There is a tip jar at the freakin' video store for cryin' out loud. This is what the practice of rampant tipping leads to.

So whine away, I'm gonna tip.

I'm not going to whine about you tipping. Like I said, I view it as a subsidy to those who do not. Voluntary socialism is the best kind.

I can't speak for others, I don't pretend to be in the same situation. All I can say is that if I had a student offer me a tip, I'd feel insulted.

Has this happened? How have you handled it?

I agree, it is very arbitrary. And I personally don't like it. I think it depends on the type of person you are, and it's not a cheap vs not cheap like some want to claim. It's a matter of people liking things to be very structured or liking to make decisions on the go. I like things structured: I plan everything far in advance. I do not like things like haggling (I want people to advertise the actual price they are willing to sell and I'll pick the best) or tipping

Exactly. What exactly is so wrong with expecting an employer to pay employees appropriately. Hey, I'm all for DM's (or whomever) making $5/tank. I think that's great. However, I don't like the expectation that I should voluntarily pass that long, over and above whatever I paid already. If a boat wants to implement a "$5/tank DM surcharge" and charge me for it up front, and pass that along to whomever, that's fine. What's so wrong with that?

even when I tip due to social standards or when I know the employees are paid low because of tips, such as at a restaurant, I tend to give a fixed percentage rather than base it on service.)

But don't you see that this just allows the employer to keep on paying low wages?

The problem is that nowadays tipping in most cases is just an extra fee. It has little to nothing to do with service. I was reading an article on what to tip, and even poor service is supposed to get a tip of 10%. Percentages are generally fixed and employees are payed based on the fact that they are getting tips.

and that's exactly it.

Tipping in itself isn't a bad thing: give someone something extra for doing an awesome job. Unfortunately, it has now become required and an excuse for businesses to pay their employees less.

Precisely.

A tip carries with it a social class and position connotation, at least as I was raised. A student (being lower on the totem pole) would never tip a teacher and regardless of their actual economic situations a teacher would never accept. As they say, "Its just not done."

So, under this scheme, giving someone a tip amounts to, "you are lower class, therefore take this money."

Perhaps because tipping has traditionally been reserved for the most menial workers, and is inherently condescending. I am usually a generous tipper, but I am often uncomfortable with the practice for the same reason.

So under this scheme, giving someone a tip amounts to, "your work is menial. That means unimportant. Therefore, take this money."

It's curious that some people seem to want to deny basic principles of economics, such as supply and demand.

Personally, I see the taking of a tip as somewhat unethical. There is an implication there that amounts to, "I'm not going to do my job well, unless I get some money on the side, over and above the amount of money that I am already earning to do this job." It leads to places like Egypt, where every 5 seconds, someone is asking for "baksheesh". Or places like Russia, where you can find yourself talking to an official for one reason or another, trying to get that official to do whatever his official duty may be, when he/she looks at your watch and announces, "I would like a gift." You often hear/see of it in restaurants. I know servers who say things to the effect of, "well, if a guy doesn't tip well, then he gets poor service next time I see him." So, in other words, the tip isn't for good service. It's a BRIBE - to ensure you don't get screwed later on. It's no different than the Russian official.

And why on earth should low wage job employee #5 expect more tip from ME than some other guy from a "rich nation" - just because of where I am from? It's considered OK or the Aussie not to tip, but if the American doesn't tip, he's just a prick. What sense does that make? It just underscores the BS of the whole thing. Again, within the context of most of this discussion, if you can pay a "fuel surcharge", or pay an "automatic 18% gratuity for parties of 8 or more", then what's so wrong with a "$5/tank DM surcharge"? Just make it sweet and simple - you can prepay it when you pay for everything else and just be done with it. The DM still gets his $5/tank, but it's from EVERYBODY, and it's much more convenient to pay.

Sure, I tip. Most of the time. But it's not because I feel there is an obligation because someone has decided to work for a low wage or a crappy job, or because they have provided some special service over and above what they should already be doing. It's simply because society guilts you into it. I find that the use of guilt, as a principle of economics, is downright reprehensible. I resist it whenever I can - which - unfortunately, is not as often as I would like.

FWIW, I don't like haggling or auctions either. I don't want to waste my time playing games with the price. If you have something for sale, you know what you will take for it. Just tell me. I'll either pay it or not. I'll gladly pay more for something OFF e-bay than I can likely get it for ON e-bay, simply to avoid all the BS involved. Just make my purchase and get it on the way, rather than fooling around, checking and bidding, checking and bidding, and eventually 5 days later, MAYBE I'll have whatever it is I am trying to buy sent to me.

 

[J.R.]

Oh please, join the real world. Tipping, like religion, music and a million other things is an aspect of human nature, societal expectations and norms.

OH... THANK YOU... Tipping is not an "aspect of human nature, societal expectation or a 'norm'..." Tipping began as a method for the upper crusty to show they were upper crusty through the pretense that they were "rewarding" exceptional service... like most things, those recieving tips eventually figured out (in a very Pavlovian manner) that if they pandered to the tippers they could make more money than by pandering to non-tippers... and thus, marginal service was born.

Eventually, employers began to figure out that tipping had become widespread enough that they should integrate it into their business plan... from this grew the practices of underpaying (more than normal) in order to make the bill "look smaller" to the customer... while still overcharging..., the practice of "manditory gratuity" for larger parties (varying from 4 to 10 people and generally in inverse porportion to amount they overcharge for their hamburgers)... and this, in turn evolved into the "recommended tipping charts" that some registers print at the bottom of their bills, the ability to add your tip to the bottom of your credit card bill and the pooling method of tipping where all employees are required to deposit all tips into a single jar to be divided equally (how... umm... *democratic* of them) thus eliminating ANY association with a customer's desire to express personal gratitude to the individual who actually helped them... and further reducing the tip to nothing more than a contribution to the employer's bottom line as an offset to wages.

Now... in as much as 'business' (both at the employer and the employee level) has decided that their right to 'tax' via the tip methodology is their right, I have come up with the following methodology...

I assume a standard 10% tip... with the following deduction:

1: If I am delayed... FOR ANY REASON...in being seated... deductions will be made
2: If service is not flawless... deductions will be made
3: If the goods are overpriced based on market... deductions will be made
4: If the goods received are defective in any way... deductions will be made
5: If there is any lack of courtesy... deductions will be made
6: If I am *gamed* in any way... deductions will be made
7: Put a sign up to REMIND me to tip... deductions will be made
8: If my service is interupted in preference to anybody else... deductions will be made
... you get the point.

On the other hand...

Personal service will be rewarded with bonus points... exceptional service will yield exceptional recognition... and, *yea*... I AM the sole arbiter of what constitutes "exceptional service"...

That is MY "societal expectation and norm"... if anybody wishes to cop attitude about it... deductions will be made...

 

[Lone Wolf]

Sure, I tip. Most of the time. But it's not because I feel there is an obligation because someone has decided to work for a low wage or a crappy job, or because they have provided some special service over and above what they should already be doing. It's simply because society guilts you into it. I find that the use of guilt, as a principle of economics, is downright reprehensible. I resist it whenever I can - which - unfortunately, is not as often as I would like.

I cannot speak for others, but I am not trying to guilt you into anything.. I believe that you should do what you believeis right, or appropriate, and if you feel it is right then what others think or say should in no way change your actions. I have been in situations where tipping is expected, and due to poor service I did not tip.. Others in my group said that I should leave a minimum tip anyway, I disagreed and did not succumb to the pressure or adapt to their norm. Establish your policies and abide by them, and accept the consequences of your actions. This is all anyone can do. I believe in tipping DM's when they assist my wife and I, and not tipping them when they don't. That is my policy, and I stand by it , and accept the results of my actions if I feel a tip is not deserved.

 

[J.R.]

... and then there's the interesting philosophic question (specifically with regard to tipping those in an instructor role)...

If you're an instructor expecting a tip... how far in your "judgement" are you willing to bend to encouage good tipping??? Personally... I would be really suspect of an instructor who accepted tips... tends to make me question their objectivity...

Tipping is a behavior modifier... a carrot... and carrots, even small ones, make a lousy substitute for a stick..

 

[oly5050user]

... and then there's the interesting philosophic question (specifically with regard to tipping those in an instructor role)...

If you're an instructor expecting a tip... how far in your "judgement" are you willing to bend to encouage good tipping??? Personally... I would be really suspect of an instructor who accepted tips... tends to make me question their objectivity...

Tipping is a behavior modifier... a carrot... and carrots, even small ones, make a lousy substitute for a stick..

I do not think it is a behavior modifier.I think of it as a way of showing appreciation for providing a good experience.If no tip at the end of class (could be baked goods/beer/cash/etc) I do not hold it against them,but I would wonder if they had a fun time.Myself and the instructors who teach at the facility do go out of our way to ensure a good time is had by all.We provide things like coffee and bagels for our weekend classes and it comes out of the instructors pocket.I personally insure that none of my students wear more weight than they need and advise them constantly to adjust by doing buoyancy checks,giving them the value of it always.Same goes for the time it may take someone to master a skill.I'll work with them,on a 1 to 1 basis if needed to get it down before their training dive,at no charge.Those are the ones I am disappointed in if there is no appreciation shown.

 

[Walter]

Charge what you need to charge to make a suitable profit. Stop expecting people to voluntarily give you their money, under the guise of some nebulous reward system.

I don't know of any instructor who expects a tip.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I don't know of any instructor who expects a tip.

read the whole topic.

 

[NudeDiver]

First of all, although I am not a particularly cheap bastard, I will admit I that I hate the whole concept of "tipping" in all instances. As far as I am concerned, someone's wages are between them and their employer and employees should not be taking money directly from the customers. If servers want to make 15% (or whatever) more, then the damned restaurant should just increase its prices by 15% and give it to the servers. That would be FINE with me. If taxi drivers want more money, then just raise the prices. If boat crews want more money, then the prices should just be increased and the difference passed on to the boat crew. Again, fine with me! I'm not necessarily adverse to paying more money, I just want it built in.

Then there is the whole issue of WHO gets tips and who doesn't? Anyone who performs a service? A restaurant server? The bellboy? The maid? The door man? The paper boy? The garbage man? Where does it end? Should I tip the paramedic that performed CPR on me? That's quite the service ya know. I don't mind paying more, I just hate trying to figure it out. I just want the "more" built into the damned price! I HATE trying to figure out who gets a tip and how much should they get. It's excessively complicated and there is no good reason for it, considering employers can just raise the prices, pass it on to the employees, and make life much more simple for the consumer, without added expense. But nooooooo, we're stuck with the stupid crappy system that we have now.

I don't buy the "reward the for extra service" bit because these days, everyone has their hand out for a tip and it is expected. It's a given. If you don't tip, for any reason, then you're considered a cheap bastard. These days, you're supposed to tip the server practically no matter what. It has lost its purpose of a reward for extra special service. Now it's, "they don't make much hourly wage, they depend on tips, so you have to tip." So much for a reward for better service. It's a lot like the standing ovation. It's supposed to be for absolutely outrageously awesome performance. However, I don't think I have ever been to a performance at the local performing arts center where the people don't give a standing ovation. Everyone gets one!! So where is the significance? If every performer really that great?? Is there really no distinction? Hell, even my local video store has a tip jar on the counter for cryin' out loud!

Last but not least - why is a tip so often based on the price of something, rather than a flat rate? So I bought a $100 meal instead of a $50 meal. Did the server really work twice as hard? Why should they get twice the tip (15% of 100 rather than 15% of 50), just because I ordered the expensive meal rather than the cheap one? What does the price of the meal possibly have to do with the level of service provided? Again - I don't get it.

Finally - if you don't tip enough, you look like a cheap bastard. If you tip too much, you look like a pompous *******. Sometimes, it seems like you just can't win - especially since the rules seem to change. It used to be that 15% was considered the standard for servers. Now it's usually considered 20%, even for basic service. When did that happen? And don't tell me it is because prices have gone up, but cause that 15% share goes up right along with the price of whatever the 15% is based on. It's all just ridiculous.

So there. With that said....recently someone mentioned to me that she tipped her SCUBA instructor. I was blown away. It never would have occurred to me that anyone would ever tip any teacher of anything under any circumstances. I was shocked. But hey, wanting to play the game and not be a cheap bastard, I figured I had better tip up you know? So, then I asked her how much does she tip? And she says, "well, whatever you think it's worth". Great. What the hell does that mean? So, I asked the same question a different way. Got the same answer. So then I said, "so, you're not going to help me out with this are you?" She says "nope". *** is that? Why does this whole tipping thing have to be some big complicated mystery? How does that possibly help ANYONE? I just don't get it.

I gave the harpist at my wedding a tip. It was $20. The cost of having her there was something like $200 - so I thought 10% more for doing something you were already paid to do was pretty good. Esp. since we're only talking like, a half hour anyway. When I gave it to her, she said something like, "oh good, now I can buy some gas". Ungrateful bitch. I wanted to just snatch it back from her. How in the hell should I know how much to tip? Again - if you would just CHARGE ME THE PRICE YOU WANT FROM THE BEGINNING this "expectation" problem could be avoided entirely.

So guys - help out a brother here. Assuming local, non-resort service - what do you tip for:

a). OW class
b). Advanced class
c). Rescue Diver class
d). Specialty class

Is it based on price, or number of hours of instruction, or days of instruction, number of OW dives involved, the position of the moon and stars, or what? Does it matter if you take the class locally or off in some destination while you're on vacation? Or do you tip instructors at all?

God I hate tipping. I just wish everything was built into the damned advertised price and you could be done with it. BY the same token, I think it should be completely illegal to advertise a price that does not include all taxes and fees - but that's a different issue

Cheers!
nd

 

[J.R.]

I do not think it is a behavior modifier.I think of it as a way of showing appreciation for providing a good experience.

I'd love to be able to agree with you... I really would. But...

The concept of tipping (back when) was ALL about behavior modification... or 'bribery' if you prefer... you tipped the maitre'd to get a good table... the bouncer to get in... the barmaid to get expedited service... you tipped the bellboy not to rip you off or to remember where the heck your room was when you rang for room service...

It's still ALL ABOUT behavior modification... now on both ends of the specturm... I won't disagree with you a bit that it *should* be a way of showing appreciation... but I'm afraid that, more often than not, *appreciation* has developed a rather broad interpretation... and appreciation is expected prior to service... not at it's conclusion. (See some of the real world examples in my previous post.)

When I buy goods or services from you what is it that, inherent to those goods or services I'm supposed to be "grateful" for? For you having fulfilled your basic obligation... ??? Grateful for proper service??? Should I be financially grateful for a smile or a less than surly attitude??? What is the "proper and customary" care a patron should expect from a vendor??? Is simple friendliness such a rare commodity these days that it warrants financial recompense??

When 'tiping reminders' are posted on dive boats... printed on the bottom of bills... printed on menu... etc., etc.. it *is* behavior modification... but not necessarily that of the service provider... often the customer's behavior is being tweeked as well...