How much does dive count tell you?

[Rhone Man]

There is one other view to this, if someone has 500 warm water dives in calm clear water, would they be considered a better diver than someone who has 67 dives in cold, murky, curent, rock entry, sand entry, boat entry, small boat entry, deep (say 98'), warm water, clear water and other various condition? It's all realitive.

True story - when I was 16 I went diving in the North of Scotland with the University of Aberdeen diving club. I had nearly 200 dives by then, but all in warm, calm, Caribbean waters. They were all Scottish divers, back when BSAC considered deco diving as standard procedure for sport divers. The guys I dived with had 20-30 dives each. And they were miles better divers than I was.

Postscript. Never dive near Aberdeen. It is cold. It is grey. There is nothing to see. Especially in February.

 

[rstofer]

:hijackedthread:

I'm sorry, but from the business experience I've had some old-timers just don't understand that what they've been doing is inefficient and costly to the business. Sure there are great old managers, but "old age and experience" can be trumped by "youth and enthusiasm." To make a definitive statement that it will "win out" "every single time" is simply inaccurate.

OK, I probably won't be around. But rethink this discussion the day before you retire. You will have forgotten more than the newcomer will learn in decades. And it won't all be from Alzheimer's.

Richard

 

[NudeDiver]

OK, I'll go back to where I started: there is no way in the world the 20 dive person could be a better diver than someone with 100 dives. Strong, I know. But that's where I started, there's no point in waffling now. It is, after all, just my opinion and how I would personally evaluate the difference.

That's fine - just as long as we're clear on what we are arguing about

The problem with 'could' is that it includes the 1 in a bazillion possibility. It's almost impossible to disprove. We would have to test a bazillion divers and then some and if we found even one positive, 'could' would be true.

I agree. But your POV has a lot more credibility, in my POV, if you will relent to say, "It's highly unlikely that the 20 diver will be better than the 100 diver" rather than "no way in the world". Saying "no way in the world" is about as reasonable as saying "could". You just need one case to prove it wrong, no matter how outrageous or how much of an outlier that case may be.

There could be some guy out there that's been an uncertified diver for decades. Now he is suddenly certified with 20 dives. Of course he 'could' be a better diver. It's even 'likely' he is the better diver.

Bah, this is a false argument. Just because he wasn't certified for his first 500 dives does not mean they don't exist - even if they are never logged. Such a guy, if asked, "how many dives do you have?" is probably going to say "over 500" not "20".

 

[Dtaine]

OK, I probably won't be around. But rethink this discussion the day before you retire. You will have forgotten more than the newcomer will learn in decades. And it won't all be from Alzheimer's.

Richard

I might not like it, but the idea that I'd be better just because of age is still absurd.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

OK, I'll go back to where I started: there is no way in the world the 20 dive person could be a better diver than someone with 100 dives. Strong, I know. But that's where I started, there's no point in waffling now. It is, after all, just my opinion and how I would personally evaluate the difference.

But there IS a way ... and in fact, I've personally known a couple people with 20 (or less) dives that I could honestly say were way stronger divers ... both mentally and physically ... than a whole bunch of 100-diver folks I've known.

Depends on a lot of things ... the four most important (IMO) being ...

- your in-water comfort level prior to taking scuba lessons
- your natural aptitude for the skills
- your mental approach to planning and executing the dive
- your desire to become a better diver

Someone who has a fairly good comfort level in the water, puts a lot of effort into their classes, and is motivated will very quickly surpass someone who only seeks to get by with minimal effort, or who struggles to get comfortable in the water. Supervision or lack of same plays a lesser role than one's own aptitude and attitude.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Charlie99]

How much does dive count tell you?

It tells me how many dives a person has made.

It gives a hint as to experience level.

Kind of like knowing someone's age. While knowing that someone is 30 or 40 or 60 years old doesn't tell you a lot about that person, you know that they most likely are much different than a 12 year old or an 18 year old.

Dive counts, just like age, are good starting points for understanding someone.

----------------------------

The other key question most Maui dive operators ask when people book dives is "WHEN WAS YOUR LAST DIVE?" This also gives them a good hint as to what to expect.

10 or 20 lifetime dives and the last dive being 2 years ago brings up an image of a diver quite different than someone with 100 or 200 dives that has been in the water in the last week or so.

 

[blatter]

Many years ago I used to work as a divemaster/instructor on boats in the temperate waters of southern Australia. I have to agree with the earlier post that suggested that asking divers who were new to me about their number of dives was much less useful than just talking to them about their diving experiences. A short conversation about diving will usually provide a good indication of what the divers actual experience and ability is. Just watching a diver gear up and get in the water, and watching them actually diving for a very short time can quickly confirm your assessment in most cases. A diver's ability to do deeper dives where narcosis is an issue is harder to assess without being in the water with the diver.

I have actually done thousands of dives, but am actually more proud of the fact that I have done those dives over a very wide range of locations and conditions. In my experience, there is a big difference between diving a sheltered lagoon near the equator with no exposure suit and a high current dive site in a drysuit off Canada's west coast, for example, or diving under ice or in low viz or ocean surge or caves or in a flowing river or in below freezing waters of the Antarctic or even in a temperate kelp forest. New situations can make divers (including me) with high numbers of dives beginners again.

Having said that, most divers with only 20 dives are just starting to get basic skills together. A regular diver, after a hundred or so dives in a particular environment, would normally be OK. As a divermaster running boat dives in cool temperate waters with often poor viz and high current, commonly accepted red flags were vacation only divers or divers who had been trained and only dived in the tropics. It is a bit sad to see people learning to dive and then becoming instructors with less than 100 dives, and is one reason why tech diving has taken off as enthusiastic divers look for ways to get better dive education.

I think one of the attractions of diving is that there is scope to learn and experience new things, even if you have done 1000 or 2000 or more dives.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Interesting thread

It's all been said before really.... but I can't resist throwing in my .02 worth

First of all I would really like directions to this mythical warm water, always the same conditions, millpond dive site people keep hinting at:blinking:

IMHO it seems like a lot of people think the diving conditions of their location somehow make them better divers than those diving in other locations Other than that mystical location noted above every site has it's challenges. Change is the only constant. I do agree a variety of experience is a good teacher.

I have dived a certain location a lot. There are quite a number of dive sites there and boy can conditions change! I've had some pretty challenging dives there and some dead easy ones too. Every one of those dives taught me something the lessons learned weren't all dive related.

Here's what I think number of dive means.

You got into the water X number of times and you got out X number of times unless you are fibbing about numbers.

Here's what I think of bottom time

You got to enjoy diving for X number of hours (providing no fibbing)

Here's what I think of Certification

You got someone to say you successfully completed a course at some point. (ND seriously 2 Rescue dives without getting wet? wow)

I will learn more by talking to you and make my decision by watching you underwater.

I refused to buddy with a DM who didn't even know what the hose was for when looking at an air integrated computer that was on sale! I admit I made that judgement before we hit the water. When we hit the water I was glad I hadn't accepted that buddy assignment! I know an instructor or two I wouldn't dive with too!

Hey...what's a "dive bag"? The boats I've dived on don't have much space for bags of any kind. Shore dives we tend to use honking big durable plastic tubs:blinking:

If I see well used gear... I might ask where they got it.... thrift shop, used on ebay or new and used by them. I can compliment them on any of the above and draw my own conclusions.:blinking:

 

[funkcanna]

OK, I probably won't be around. But rethink this discussion the day before you retire. You will have forgotten more than the newcomer will learn in decades. And it won't all be from Alzheimer's.

Richard

Im not saying that at the time of retirement the now "young" manager wont be better than he/she is now, but that doesnt mean that the young manager is still not better NOW than some older people.

 

[NudeDiver]

You got someone to say you successfully completed a course at some point. (ND seriously 2 Rescue dives without getting wet? wow)

I didn't say I didn't get wet - I said that I didn't go diving. Not the same thing. Two of the "scenarios" were surface rescues, in full gear. One of them even required me to drop down a bit to get behind the victim. Do I consider that a dive? No.