New divers and BCs

[NudeDiver]

Moderator,,please show me how to delete me from form SB completly,all profiles ans otherwise

Wow! I'll take that as a "yes".

Yes this is true. I find it hard to imagine why some people I know spent a fortune on their BC (i.e. over $1000, which is what it costs for top of the line BCs in Australia) when they may only do 25 or even less dives a year. I sat down before buying gear and worked out how long it would take before my gear purchase would have paid for itself versus renting. I think it was about 40 or so rentals, which I would have done by now had I not bought. But I guess some people just like to have their own stuff, even when it does not make sense economically.

Well, there is nothing wrong with this. There is more to life than ONLY economics

Sometimes, fit is an issue. For some body types, having your own stuff is the way to go, no matter what kind of gear we're talking about.

Other times - you have to look at cost a different way. I ended up buying my drysuit based off the cost of a single trip. I was going to be traveling, and so I needed a suit for something like 8 days, even though I was only planning on 4 dives. So, the rental cost was going to be something like $400. I could get my OWN suit for only $850. So, even though my "per dive" cost is still quite high (about 25 dives on this suit), it's pretty clear that it still made sense to buy a suit at the time. By buying for that trip instead of renting, I effectively got the suit for half-off. My "per dive cost" more appropriately starts from $450 or so. Excluding the 2 dives I ended up making on that trip, we have $450/23, or about $20/dive. Not too bad, but I have a ways to go

Other times - you have to look at the non-dollar economic cost. For example, what's your time worth? If every time you want to dive, you have to go to a dive shop, find something that fits, go through the paperwork (every shop I've ever been to operates about as efficiently as government on a bad day), and then go through the return process when you're done. You can easily burn 2 hours of this BS every time you go diving. So what's that time worth? Varies on the individual.

Other times - maybe you want to dive with better stuff than you can rent. Some shops have only low-end, crappy gear. Maybe you don't want crappy gear. By crappy, I just mean, not what you want to use, not that it's necessarily crappy from an objective standpoint. If you can't rent, you have to buy.

But yeah - you're right - sometimes, there is just nothing like having your own gear. It may surprise you to know that I have a $1000 (US) pool cue. Most people would say, "are you ****ing crazy??!" Maybe I am. There is no way that, from an economic standpoint, such an expensive pool cue makes any sense at all - given that you can use one for FREE when you go out and shoot pool. But you know, I've had this cue for, uh, more than 15 years. While I may not use it often, I'm still glad I have it. Besides giving me a better game, I simply enjoy using it. Can't say the same for a house cue

All I was getting at a few posts back, to which the OP seemed to take much offense, was that one does not NECESSARILY need to buy a BC. It's not a given - and one shouldn't let anyone convince one that it is. My first inclination is to analyze the economics, but that's not EVERYONE's first stop - and that's OK too

Cheers!
nd

 

[oreocookie]

So - what, you just want praise and thanks, rather than a real discussion?

firefgter, we discuss things here, we don't usually argue... generally that only happens when somebody thinks somebody posts something dumb, which is easy if you know what might be generally considered dumb.

dumb posts usually seem to result in one of 2 things:
1) an argument erupts between the OP and others (usually), with the OP being either a troll or a generally argumentative individual. the argument then turns into a discussion about whatever the OP said something dumb about
2) the OP gets made fun of, then eventually (hopefully) the thread dies and people leave it alone for 2 years before somebody finds it, posts about it still existing then people start laughing again.

and fwiw, when trying to spark an argument, dumb questions seem to work a lot better than dumb statements as people will laugh then argue instead of laughing and telling you that you're wrong.



and even if the post isn't intended to be dumb but is perceived as such, the same thing will happen... here and at any other anonymous online forum where people can openly state their opinions and tear apart those of others that they seriously disagree with.

 

[sabbath999]

But I guess some people just like to have their own stuff, even when it does not make sense economically.

I am a NOOB, but I can tell you that I have no desire to use rental gear for several reasons, not one of which has anything to do with economics.

1) I live 100 miles from the nearest dive shop, and it is nowhere near my nearest good diving spot.

2) I want to use the same BC, same regulators and same weight system each and every dive. I want to know without thinking about it where my buckles are, where my d-rings hang, where my air dumps are... and I want my buddy to know this stuff about my equipment as well. I don't want to be fumbling around with stuff I am unfamiliar with in an emergency, I believe that consistency is a key to diving safety.

3) I am trying to get good at buoyancy... and the best way for me to do this that I have found (so far, at least) is to use one weight & trim system... I can change the weights and trim and nothing else and that tells me what effect certain configurations have on my balance and trim. I can't do that with rental gear.

4) I have no idea about the service records of rental gear (especially about the regs)... I do know how/when my gear is serviced, and I know that my regs are cleaned properly after every single dive (because we clean them ourselves).

I could go on and on, but you get my drift.

I could care less about how much it costs... doesn't matter squat to me. Money I have (and if I don't have it, I know how to get it... WORK).

My equipment may or may not be what others would choose, but it works for me and it is consistent every single dive... consistency removes stress, and less stress is GOOD when it comes to diving.

 

[Sas]

I agree there are other reasons to own a BC than rent that aren't the financial costs, such as NudeDiver and sabbath999 have brought up (and I think they come under 'economic reasons' actually, even though they do not involve money - opportunity costs are a big part of economics and money a very little part of economics!). That being said, I do think many new divers rush into owning all their own gear before properly thinking about how much diving they are going to do. That is why there are heaps of 'almost-new' scuba gear sales on ebay and other places

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Yes this is true. I find it hard to imagine why some people I know spent a fortune on their BC (i.e. over $1000, which is what it costs for top of the line BCs in Australia) when they may only do 25 or even less dives a year. I sat down before buying gear and worked out how long it would take before my gear purchase would have paid for itself versus renting.

That's one way to look at it (economically). But it's also worth considering quality (as you mentioned afterwards). For something like basic 80cf tanks, rentals and having your own are basically the same, so you can look at on an economic level. But for BCDs, there are various advantages to keeping your own:
- BCD probably better to begin with
- you know you will always have the same one: with same features and problems
- always know how to attach gear, what can be put in pockets, etc.
- don't really need to worry about defective gear as long as you are taking care of it (at least much less likely)

So even on an "economic" level you need to consider quality of the products being compared (you can't compare buying a Jaguar and leasing a Ford Focus on purely dollar for dollar value since you are renting and purchasing something different).

Also, even if you're only doing 20 dives a year, if you calculate it takes 50 dives to pay off, then that's still a reasonable purchase on a pure dollar basis since most BCDs should last more than 2 years.

 

[sabbath999]

I agree there are other reasons to own a BC than rent that aren't the financial costs, such as NudeDiver and sabbath999 have brought up (and I think they come under 'economic reasons' actually, even though they do not involve money - opportunity costs are a big part of economics and money a very little part of economics!).

You must have read some other post, not mine, if you think my reasons had ANYTHING to do with economics in any way (without twisting what I have said beyond recognition or use).

My statements are about safety, about improving my diving and about not driving hundreds of miles out of my way over multiple days (which is what it would take) to rent equipment.

 

[NudeDiver]

That being said, I do think many new divers rush into owning all their own gear before properly thinking about how much diving they are going to do. That is why there are heaps of 'almost-new' scuba gear sales on ebay and other places

Absolutely true. Applies to motorcycles too. There are many low-mileage bikes out there available for pennies on the dollar compared to original cost.

 

[Sas]

You must have read some other post, not mine, if you think my reasons had ANYTHING to do with economics in any way (without twisting what I have said beyond recognition or use).

My statements are about safety, about improving my diving and about not driving hundreds of miles out of my way over multiple days (which is what it would take) to rent equipment.

I studied economics for seven years. Your reasons above are all economic reasons. Look up opportunity cost...

[QUOTE="Coldwater_Canuk]Also, even if you're only doing 20 dives a year, if you calculate it takes 50 dives to pay off, then that's still a reasonable purchase on a pure dollar basis since most BCDs should last more than 2 years.[/QUOTE]

I was calculating my reasoning based on 2-3 dives per rental cost. So it would be more than two years, which would not be worth it to me. Everyone has their own reasons and ways of calculating what is important. I focus mine more on financial reasons but I am not trying to say that is the only correct way, just that I struggle to understand others who base it on other reasons (Like NudeDiver's pool cue! Not dissing you dude, but I can't understand that at all To each their own)

 

[NudeDiver]

Like NudeDiver's pool cue! Not dissing you dude, but I can't understand that at all To each their own

Well, it's like what I told my wife today when she came home with $100 worth of alcohol. "Sweetie, why not just take our money and dump it directly into the toilet." It is difficult for me to comprehend why people spend money on alcohol and drugs. Nevertheless, it's a multi-billion dollar industry. Even so, after spending $1000 on my pool cue, I still have it 15 years later. Hard to say the same about $1000 worth of alcohol

FWIW, About 8 years ago, I bought a pool table to go with my cue. So now I can play at home and don't have to take my cue out and about at all

Cheers!
nd

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

You must have read some other post, not mine, if you think my reasons had ANYTHING to do with economics in any way (without twisting what I have said beyond recognition or use).

My statements are about safety, about improving my diving and about not driving hundreds of miles out of my way over multiple days (which is what it would take) to rent equipment.

I'm not an economist, but wouldn't these factor into the economic reasons? Because all of the things you listed add value, and I think if you consider "value" as opposed to just "price" (value meaning that it incorporates all the things you listed as adding to it's 'worth') it's still economic reasoning.

As I alluded to earlier, saying a Jaguar at $50,000 is better than a Ford Focus at $40,000 is still an economic argument, even if in pure dollar sense a Ford Focus at $40,000 is better than a Jaguar at $50,000.

I was calculating my reasoning based on 2-3 dives per rental cost. So it would be more than two years, which would not be worth it to me. Everyone has their own reasons and ways of calculating what is important. I focus mine more on financial reasons but I am not trying to say that is the only correct way, just that I struggle to understand others who base it on other reasons (Like NudeDiver's pool cue! Not dissing you dude, but I can't understand that at all To each their own)

Ah good point. Although in the case of 20-25 dives per year, as long as the person keeps it up, that's still reasonable for owning your own BCD, although on a dollars and cents value it does cut it much closer.