Diving & Epilepsy

[DandyDon]

I appreciate your objection one of my remarks, took it out and sent you a PM suggesting you might do the same. I was wrong, not trying to cover my butt, just trying to fix the mistake.

My objections to diving with him have only been to the group leader only. Even tho Simon is suggesting easier rules for Epileptic divers, he did suggest shallow dives only, while this diver far exceeds those suggestions.

But what MOD would you suggest to an epileptic diver on Nitrox, and what would you base that one...?

 

[fairybasslet]

I appreciate your objection one of my remarks, took it out and sent you a PM suggesting you might do the same. I was wrong, not trying to cover my butt, just trying to fix the mistake.

I fixed my quote of your post so this diver will maintain some privacy regarding his medical condition

My objections to diving with him have only been to the group leader only. Even tho Simon is suggesting easier rules for Epileptic divers, he did suggest shallow dives only, while this diver far exceeds those suggestions.

Considering that many divers go much deeper on trimix or with rebreathers, in a lot of circles, 130 fsw is considered "shallow." And if he isn't your buddy, how do you know his depth? I never look at my buddy's depth gauge. I never know exactly how deep they are. My opinion is, if the leader has no problem diving with this diver then it is none of your business. BTW, the conclusions weren't Simon's personal opinion but that of the Epilepsy Action.

But what MOD would you suggest to an epileptic diver on Nitrox, and what would you base that one...?

The percentage of the O2 mix, just like any other diver.

 

[DandyDon]

Considering that many divers go much deeper on trimix or with rebreathers, in a lot of circles, 130 fsw is considered "shallow."

I don't think that is the depth suggested by "shallow" in the report.

And if he isn't your buddy, how do you know his depth?

I've been on 3 trips with him. There are no shallow dives on NC wrecks or Texas Flower Gardens. The other trip, he left in an ambulance before I got there.

The percentage of the O2 mix, just like any other diver.

Everything else I have found on the subject suggests that the epileptic diver should not dive, and some sources like DAN Divers Alert Network : CNS Considerations in Scuba Diving further suggest "Fitness & Diving: "As with epilepsy, any loss of consciousness underwater is likely to have a bad outcome. When diving using nitrox or mixed gas as a breathing gas, increased partial pressures of oxygen can increase the likelihood of seizures." While Simon and the foundation are attempting to update information, all I have to go on for now is what I find from reputable sources like DAN.

I would be interested in Simon's views on the max depth for an epileptic diver and the consequences of nitrox...?

And it would certainly be informative if Duke U and DAN were to actually run controlled hyperbaric environment test to better determine risks of diving with epilepsy - especially with Nitrox, medications, Narcosis with the medications, etc. Anecdotal evidence is not much to go one.

 

[fairybasslet]

I don't think that is the depth suggested by "shallow" in the report.I've been on 3 trips with him. There are no shallow dives on NC wrecks or Texas Flower Gardens. The other trip, he left in an ambulance before I got there.

It seems like a few divers that you've been on trips with lately have wound up in medical emergencies. Evidence would point to your presence as the contributing factor.
And what was the reason he was taken away in the ambulance? Did it have anything to do with the topic of this thread?

Everything else I have found on the subject suggests that the epileptic diver should not dive, and some sources like DAN Divers Alert Network : CNS Considerations in Scuba Diving further suggest "Fitness & Diving: "As with epilepsy, any loss of consciousness underwater is likely to have a bad outcome. When diving using nitrox or mixed gas as a breathing gas, increased partial pressures of oxygen can increase the likelihood of seizures." While Simon and the foundation are attempting to update information, all I have to go on for now is what I find from reputable sources like DAN.

I would be interested in Simon's views on the max depth for an epileptic diver and the consequences of nitrox...?

And it would certainly be informative if Duke U and DAN were to actually run controlled hyperbaric environment test to better determine risks of diving with epilepsy - especially with Nitrox, medications, Narcosis with the medications, etc. Anecdotal evidence is not much to go one.

Yes, and the advice that people with epilepsy not dive at all is based precisely on the same anecdotal evidence that you decry. The current requirements in the UK are ridiculous, as Simon's organization is trying to publicize. People with controlled epilepsy are not banned from driving and flying planes once they have been seizure free for a determined number of years whether or not they are still on medication.

 

[DandyDon]

It seems like a few divers that you've been on trips with lately have wound up in medical emergencies. Evidence would point to your presence as the contributing factor.

Hohoho

And what was the reason he was taken away in the ambulance? Did it have anything to do with the topic of this thread?

Yep. Seizure on the dock after shallow dives.

Yes, and the advice that people with epilepsy not dive at all is based precisely on the same anecdotal evidence that you decry. The current requirements in the UK are ridiculous, as Simon's organization is trying to publicize. People with controlled epilepsy are not banned from driving and flying planes once they have been seizure free for a determined number of years whether or not they are still on medication.

Nope, the current guidelines do all seem to be based on theoretical but not same anecdotal evidence. To my knowledge, no controlled hyperbaric environment tests have been done by a reputable source like Duke U or DAN and I would agree it would be good to do so.

 

[mikes351]

My question is how did he get certified and by what agency? Or did he not fully state his condition?

 

[masterof0]

I am new to Scuba Board and just happened to see this thread and thought it was an interesting discussion. As I went through the thread, it appears as though the most of the discussion happened last year.

I am friends with an epileptic and know that he has discussed his condition with TDI, PADI, and SSI and all have stated that as long as he has received proper clearance from his provider then he was free to become certified. As a result, over the last few months, he has become OW certified and and currently working on his AOW...So I am not sure what has changed, and when, between the beginning of this thread and now, but it appears as though the cert agencies are now allowing it to occur.

The one thing I will note is that I know he openly discusses his condition with any and all that he dives with, including me, and if anyone feels uncomfortable with his condition, he does not put them in a precarious situation of being forced to dive with him.

 

[austriandiveress]

This thread is also of interest to me. I'd like to ask: what about other health conditions that can cause an unexpected loss of conciousness?
As far as I know, diving with diabetes is not forbidden, with the exception of deco dives. Of course you could argue that a diabetic who monitors their glucose level before a dive is at little risk, but then so is an epileptic who has been seizure free for years.....
Of course no diver should put a fellow diver at risk or in a position where they are unprepared for a medical emergency, but I personally advocate tolerance such as that shown by masterof0 and fairybasslet.

 

[mikes351]

This thread is also of interest to me. I'd like to ask: what about other health conditions that can cause an unexpected loss of conciousness?
As far as I know, diving with diabetes is not forbidden, with the exception of deco dives. Of course you could argue that a diabetic who monitors their glucose level before a dive is at little risk, but then so is an epileptic who has been seizure free for years.....
Of course no diver should put a fellow diver at risk or in a position where they are unprepared for a medical emergency, but I personally advocate tolerance such as that shown by masterof0 and fairybasslet.

Tolerance isn't the issue, safety is. When diving we are entering into a world that can become dangerous very quickly and worse yet can endanger others. I as much as anyone want people to safely enjoy scuba diving, with that said I will not knowingly put anyone at risk. This risk also extends to those diving with the individual as well as boat operators and resorts.

 

[masterof0]

I have been around epileptics all my life. I have to admit that I have seen and read about just as many accidents coming from "healthy" people who have had heart attacks, strokes, panic attacks, etc than I have people who have had seizures. I definitely understand both perspectives on the situation. The response I have to some of the earlier people who are in this thread is that I don't agree, at all, with those who choose to dive with ANY condition without it being known to the dive budy or anyone who can be put at risk. More importantly, is if a doctor has given him the OK to participate in such an activity at a recreational level, why should anyone be able to deny him that opportunity? More importantly to know is that not only has he gotten the appropriate release, but he also has to have a yearly physical (for his drivers license) so he is constantly aware of his condition...which may not hold true for others (those without) who go years without any physical assessment to determine their level of health

As with my friend, I am totally aware of of his situation and choose to accept the risk associated with diving with him. We have discussed what actions need to be taken in case the situation does occur. (The only place that is still open to discussion is the use of a full face mask) I also know that he is open and honest about it and will not put anyone in the position of being forced to dive with them if they do not feel comfortable about it...