Near-DIR diving: Are there DIR things you would probably never do?

[MXGratefulDiver]

These are MY best mixes. You are free to use them sil vous plait.

Freedom ... that is the difference between me and GUE-DIR.

The freedom to think, and then act.

Again ... hmmm ... by that logic, what GUE, NAUI, et al, recommends would also be THEIR best mixes.

You don't seem to have a real-world grasp on what the term "best mix" actually means.

As for "freedom to think" ... everyone I know who uses standard mixes does so for reasons that they've thought about, and decided were good ones. For example, I use specific mixes for specific depth ranges because it makes it easier for me to plan contingencies, to determine oxygen exposures, and to determine a decompression scehdule without having to rely on some computer software that knows nothing at all about my personal physiology.

I could probably do all those things using a best mix as well, but it wouldn't be as straightforward, and would require me to diddle around with calculators and write down contingency schedules. I was trained that way ... and used that method for a while. I found it cumbersome and limiting, especially for the type of exploration diving that I enjoy doing.

Although I don't consider myself a DIR diver ... and almost all of my tech training has been through NAUI ... I do have a pretty good handle on what the reasoning is behind what GUE teaches. And based on what I've learned ... from both training and real-world experience ... it seems pretty well thought-out. I don't necessarily agree with their approach on everything, but there's nothing dogmatic about it ... everything's done as it is for a reason.

"Freedom" is all well and good ... as long as you understand why you're making the choices you are, and as long as whoever you're diving with is on the same page you are. But DIR/GUE covers both of those bases pretty well. I really don't see the problem ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nereas]

...
"Freedom" is all well and good ... as long as you understand why you're making the choices you are, and as long as whoever you're diving with is on the same page you are. But DIR/GUE covers both of those bases pretty well. I really don't see the problem ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yes, indeed, with GUE-DIR you do not need to do any thinking on your own at all.

That's very convenient. And less work.

However the danger then becomes that you forget how.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Yes, indeed, with GUE-DIR you do not need to do any thinking on your own at all.

That's very convenient. And less work.

However the danger then becomes that you forget how.

One can grind an axe to the point where it's of no value to anyone, ya know ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

1 ATA google diving at its best....again a patch I would pay for...jeff.

Right up there with his "standard mixes". I guess when you're solo diving you can standardize on whatever you want. I missed the 12.5/60 though.

 

[Thalassamania]

In actuality, like any canned system designed as one size to fit all, GUE-DIR is notoriously unsound.

Yet what was archived by the WKPP is singular.

It has tainted the universal standard of "two of everything critical" by deletions that make their divers buddy dependent.

Being a member if a team is hardly something that I'd deprecate.

I It has elevated its own notion of "minimalization" for the cause of "failure point reduction" as a rationalization for incompleteness.

There we disagree.

I It has loaded their divers with standardized gasses while at the same time stifling their ability to make best-mix calculations and decisions by themselves.

I agree in theory, but in practice it's likely a good idea.

I OMG and then there was the albatross that was GI3. At least that has slithered away.

Yup.

I If you learn best mix determination, and stick to two of everything, and reject buddy dependence, then you will be much better off, a safer and more reliant technical diver.

Nope.

I But GUE-DIR requires deprogramming. And professional help, thereafter.

In some rare cases.

 

[TSandM]

Thank you, Thal. I know you have your differences of opinion with GUE/DIR, but I greatly appreciate your willingness to acknowledge the things they do well, or at least better than the competition

 

[vbcoachchris]

Again ... hmmm ... by that logic, what GUE, NAUI, et al, recommends would also be THEIR best mixes.

You don't seem to have a real-world grasp on what the term "best mix" actually means.

As for "freedom to think" ... everyone I know who uses standard mixes does so for reasons that they've thought about, and decided were good ones. For example, I use specific mixes for specific depth ranges because it makes it easier for me to plan contingencies, to determine oxygen exposures, and to determine a decompression scehdule without having to rely on some computer software that knows nothing at all about my personal physiology.

I could probably do all those things using a best mix as well, but it wouldn't be as straightforward, and would require me to diddle around with calculators and write down contingency schedules. I was trained that way ... and used that method for a while. I found it cumbersome and limiting, especially for the type of exploration diving that I enjoy doing.

Although I don't consider myself a DIR diver ... and almost all of my tech training has been through NAUI ... I do have a pretty good handle on what the reasoning is behind what GUE teaches. And based on what I've learned ... from both training and real-world experience ... it seems pretty well thought-out. I don't necessarily agree with their approach on everything, but there's nothing dogmatic about it ... everything's done as it is for a reason.

"Freedom" is all well and good ... as long as you understand why you're making the choices you are, and as long as whoever you're diving with is on the same page you are. But DIR/GUE covers both of those bases pretty well. I really don't see the problem ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

This person actually agrees with 66.7% of GUE Standard Mixes. His only complaint is 15/50 instead of 15/55 and 21/40 instead of 21/35. It seems for the deeper dives they like a little less helium than GUE's 15/55 and for the shallower dives a little more than GUE's 21/35.

Makes complete sense now

Scott Christopher
NAUI Tech Instructor

 

[grazie42]

So...to the OP:Nereas wouldn´t use (all) the standard mixes nor dive in a "team"...
What about the rest of you guys?

 

[Thalassamania]

Thank you, Thal. I know you have your differences of opinion with GUE/DIR, but I greatly appreciate your willingness to acknowledge the things they do well, or at least better than the competition

I think that GUE/DIR is a fine way to skin a cat ... my only problem is with their inability to recognize that there are other fine ways to skin a cat ... some with very different philosophical underpinnings.

 

[RiverRat]

So...to the OP:Nereas wouldn´t use (all) the standard mixes nor dive in a "team"...
What about the rest of you guys?

Well earlier in the thread I got off to a bad start. Partly my bad. Hopefully that's over with and maybe I can proceed without getting into any pissing contests with anyone. One thing I can say, as a new tech diver, this thread has been quite informative by showing opinions from both sides of the fence. I'm fresh from TDI Adv. Nitrox and DECO and I'm diving some of the shallower Northeast wrecks right now and using v-planner to plan my dives. This thread got me thinking about a LOT of things related to deco profiles, specifically shape (ssshhhhh I downloaded the RatioDeco.pdf), standard gasses, stage bottle positioning (all on the left GUE style, left lean, right rich etc.) as well as a few other topics. I have a better understanding of why GUE/DIR does things their way and others do things their way as well. For example, when thinking about wearing stages, I didn't realize right away that wearing one on the right would block my long hose deployment, now it makes sense. So that's something to think about. So far I'm just diving a 30 cuft. O2 bottle on the left but I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it. I could go on and on but you get the point, lots to digest so even though this thread started out crappy I think it has started to become very productive, at least from my end. So with that I'll answer Grazie's questions:

Nereas wouldn't use (all) the standard mixes nor dive in a "team"...
What about the rest of you guys?


A: Standard gasses? Sounds good to me, but I'm still researching this. I know if my shop banked 32% it would make life easier on all of us. I suppose after I take the Trimix course it'll make a bit more sense, as far as the Helium aspect.

B: I prefer diving with a buddy most of the time. Besides the safety aspect it's more fun. But I don't want to become totally reliant on a buddy and would prefer my buddy to do the same. I've seen some reference to the fact that DIR divers are too reliant on the buddy and when things go brown they have a hard time dealing with it. In any event we are all adults and my personal opnion is that if one wants to solo dive, then that is one's right to do so. And I also believe one can be a team player, plan and execute team dives and yet make the choice to go solo whenever they feel like it. In my experience, I've had some buddies that, at times, were more of a liability than an asset to the "team". Of course if I were diving with DIR divers from the start, and not choosing to dive with "newer buddies" or "various buddies" or what have you, then I may not have the same opinions. But I like to dive whenever I get the chance so with that comes the expectation of "screwed up buddy diving". But I have buddies that I trust, that I dive with often, that I'll do more demanding dives with. Some others I'll only do weenie dives with. But as I get more into tech diving, I'm getting way more picky as to who I'll dive with. In fact, like I said, some dives I'd rather do solo. I can get my head more into the game that way. Of course I take on the risk of a "health event" or entrapment but that's up to me if I decide to take a risk like that. But it seems that if I do have a "health event" on a deep deco dive, I'm probably a gonner anyway and about the only thing a buddy could do would be help make sure I could be recovered.