DAN missed the boat ...

[Geoff_H]

Sorry to pick up on your post Lynne, but it aptly demonstrates exactly the problem I am referring to.

I never said anybody had to take Fundies. GUE is where I got a lot of my training in awareness and team cohesion, but you don't have to get it there.

Most divers don't have the time, money or desire to take Fundies.

The beginnings of my education were with NWGratefulDiver, and I know he teaches an AOW class that has a lot of the skills for planning a dive and being a good buddy in it.

Most divers don't have the time, money or desire to take Bob's AOW class.

And ANYBODY who takes a cavern or cave class is going to get awareness and communication drilled into them.

Most divers don't have the time, money or desire to take cave/cavern classes.

The problem is that, like "plan your dive and dive your plan", "dive as a buddy" is taught as a principle, but divers aren't given the tools to accomplish it.

Most divers don't have the time, money or desire to take classes to accomplish it.

The skills can be learned by ANY diver. They aren't taught. That's the problem.

Most divers don't have the time, money or desire to take classes to accomplish it.

Nobody is disputing a long course makes you a better diver, nobody is disputing Fundies will make you a better diver, nobody is disputing Bob's AOW will make you a better diver, nobody is disputing cave training makes you a better diver.

But the fact is - all of your comments above are irrelevant to 95% of divers in the world, probably more like 99% People can argue for weeks about putting a spool in the left or right pocket, or the exact optimal material and type of bolt snap for a regulator clip but these arguments have about as much relevance to the world diving population as the insistence that better training is the only answer to making the majority of divers safer.

 

[grazie42]

I think all divers who´ve dived a bit have experienced a buddy system failiure. But like all the other critical skills, failiure is a reason to "try harder", not to "stop trying"...

I dive with insta-buddies quite often and while there have been a few that I´d never dive with again, if I´m honest with myself, I knew before we got wet that it wouldn´t be a good dive. Personally, I´ve started paying attention to "that little voice" and also to be more proactive in insta-buddy selection...

It may be location-dependent (though I don´t really believe so), but I don´t think insta-buddies are a valid excuse for a buddy system failiure. You need to "own the problem" and do more to prevent it by using things like buddy-checks, discussing uw coms, dive plan and "lost buddy procedures" because by doing so you´re signalling to your insta-buddy that your comitted to maintaining unit cohesion...if you act like you don´t care about that stuff, your insta-buddy will treat you as if you don´t...

ymmv

 

[DA Aquamaster]

DAN promotes the buddy system heavily ... so why are they telling people that the way to fix a broken system is to prepare to dive like a solo diver?

I don't buy it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You are missing the point...there is nothing wrong with the buddy dystem - except relying totally on it. It makes perfect sense for DAN to both promote the buddy system and to promote greater redundancy and self reliance if it fails (for whatever reason). A pony bottle also adds resources to the buddy team tell me how that would be bad or be in conflict with the buddy team.

Military pilots fly formation on instruments all the time, but the wingman all have their own instruments in the event they get separated. The DAN argument is similar - fly in formation but to the extent possible be able to fly on your own if the need arises.

If you can't buy that Bob, you may want to engage in some introspection to discover why. I find as I approach dinosaur hood that one of the most valuable assets I have is to constantly re-evaluate what worked yesterday to see if it is still the optimum way to do it today. Doing exactly that for a living helps.

-----

I agree with Lynne that there are several ways to increase skills and awareness that can enchance a diver's ability to maintain and add to a buddy team. The irony is that one of those ways is to take a solo diving course as it addresses the same situational awareness, planning and limit setting issues as a cavern course. I'd argue it strenghtens motivtion to maintain team integrity as a properly solo trained and responsible solo diver recognizes when a particular dive requires a buddy team to keep things within acceptable limits. I can't say that about the average OW or AOW diver who may be indoctrinated with the buddy system but may not be committed to or even sure why the or she needs to stay close to his or her buddy on a given dive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You are missing the point...there is nothing wrong with the buddy dystem - except relying totally on it.

I don't disagree with that, but ...

It makes perfect sense for DAN to both promote the buddy system and to promote greater redundancy and self reliance if it fails (for whatever reason). A pony bottle also adds resources to the buddy team tell me how that would be bad or be in conflict with the buddy team.

The problem is that, in this article they only mentioned adding the pony bottle. They never even paid lip service in their analysis to what actually CAUSED the accident, which was a breakdown in the buddy system, terrible decision-making, and two divers who started their dive as buddies and executed their dive as solo divers.

Whatever happened to "plan your dive and dive your plan"? Is that just some meaningless slogan that we use as filler in our scuba curriculum?

Military pilots fly formation on instruments all the time, but the wingman all have their own instruments in the event they get separated. The DAN argument is similar - fly in formation but to the extent possible be able to fly on your own if the need arises.

I didn't see that advice in the article at all ... what I saw was "buy a redundant air source". They never touched on any other contingency for dealing with the emergency.

If you can't buy that Bob, you may want to engage in some introspection to discover why. I find as I approach dinosaur hood that one of the most valuable assets I have is to constantly re-evaluate what worked yesterday to see if it is still the optimum way to do it today. Doing exactly that for a living helps.

I think it is you who are missing the point ...

I agree with Lynne that there are several ways to increase skills and awareness that can enchance a diver's ability to maintain and add to a buddy team. The irony is that one of those ways is to take a solo diving course as it addresses the same situational awareness, planning and limit setting issues as a cavern course. I'd argue it strenghtens motivtion to maintain team integrity as a properly solo trained and responsible solo diver recognizes when a particular dive requires a buddy team to keep things within acceptable limits. I can't say that about the average OW or AOW diver who may be indoctrinated with the buddy system but may not be committed to or even sure why the or she needs to stay close to his or her buddy on a given dive.

I do not disagree with you at all ... if the writer of this article had in any way addressed skills and awareness as the issue ... whether it be as a buddy or a solo diver ... I would not have had an issue with his analysis. He didn't. His advice was simply ... and solely ... to buy more gear.

You cannot fix bad decision-making and poor skills with gear ... all that does is (in some cases) mask the problem. Maybe THIS TIME it might have saved this diver. It would not, however, be a cure for the manner in which the dive was executed or the really bad decision he made to go back down. All it would've done is put off his eventual accident till ... perhaps ... another dive.

This guy was destined to hurt himself ... because he failed to approach his dive like a diver ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[D_B]

Saying that

Most divers don't have the time, money or desire to take classes to accomplish it.

in response to these comments by Lynne ...

The problem is that, like "plan your dive and dive your plan", "dive as a buddy" is taught as a principle, but divers aren't given the tools to accomplish it.

and ...

The skills can be learned by ANY diver. They aren't taught. That's the problem.

I'm missing something ... how expensive or time consuming is teaching/learning specific buddy skills ? can this skill be better taught in OW? .. certainly by AOW?

If I was told buddy specific techniques in OW, maybe I was too task loaded and this part of training did not sink in ?

 

[SPG3K]

Saying that in response to these comments by Lynne ... and ...

I'm missing something ... how expensive or time consuming is teaching/learning specific buddy skills ? can this skill be better taught in OW? .. certantly by AOW?

This is where I have the problem.

You will never be able to teach some people to be a good buddy. No matter what class you send them to.

Those that are/will be a good buddy are easy to spot. It's not a learned behavior. Which is why I was saying early on that human nature makes the buddy system inherently flawed unless you are dealing with a specific group of divers.

Even newbs like me, it's easy to spot. From day one I was stuck to my buddy like glue, because I understand the principle of the buddy system. I'm supposed to be there for him/her in case something goes wrong.

Two people on my first dive out of certification, from my class went completely AWOL from their buddies underwater. How do you explain that?

How did I keep track of mine, in 6" viz, but they lost theirs? I'm not magic, I don't have a handheld SONAR.

They just didn't CARE. They were in it for themselves. Tell me which class will fix that problem?

 

[Bismark]

Ultimately, I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the approach of "buy more gear" promoted by the largest dive agency has leaked over into DAN. People seem to be prepared to buy a band aid fix for problems with their wallet rather than fix the underlying problems. Quicker to buy a pony bottle (how many people on this thread stated they were going to do so after reading this) and "fix" a potential problem rather than look at fixing the real problem with some practise or training. Just like more people will buy "fat reduction pills" rather than spend the time in a gym or cut back on eating. Sadly, I am sure we will then start seeing accident analysis that points to incorrect deployment of pony bottles through lack of training or practice as the primary reason for fatalities. There is no silver bullet here. Adding more gear without practice and training simply increases the complexity of the dive. And additional concern will be those who look at your "emergency redundant gas supply, aka, pony bottle or whatever) as a means of extending a dive by giving the diver more gas available. Then of course, we will have to look at adding a second pony bottle for "emergencies".....

 

[SPG3K]

Ultimately, I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the approach of "buy more gear" promoted by the largest dive agency has leaked over into DAN. People seem to be prepared to buy a band aid fix for problems with their wallet rather than fix the underlying problems. Quicker to buy a pony bottle (how many people on this thread stated they were going to do so after reading this) and "fix" a potential problem rather than look at fixing the real problem with some practise or training. Just like more people will buy "fat reduction pills" rather than spend the time in a gym or cut back on eating. Sadly, I am sure we will then start seeing accident analysis that points to incorrect deployment of pony bottles through lack of training or practice as the primary reason for fatalities. There is no silver bullet here. Adding more gear without practice and training simply increases the complexity of the dive. And additional concern will be those who look at your "emergency redundant gas supply, aka, pony bottle or whatever) as a means of extending a dive by giving the diver more gas available. Then of course, we will have to look at adding a second pony bottle for "emergencies".....

True, true.

The average American will always choose to throw money rather than time and effort at a problem if it's available.

This is proven time after time after time. I'm not sure why we find it surprising that the same attitude prevails where a problem in diving is concerned.

 

[D_B]

I care, and I've lost track of a buddy under water by a bad buddy skill, I know now that side by side is better, follow the leader does not work in low vis .. a better explanation (or a scary example) in OW, or AOW or Rescue class, might have stuck better with me ..
Your right, some do not care enough to learn (or notice) better diving techniques

 

[Rick Inman]

The skills can be learned by ANY diver. They aren't taught. That's the problem.

Most divers don't have the time, money or desire to take Fundies.

I think we are giving people too little credit. I see, almost every week, people who are PADI, SSI and NAUI trained, right out of open water, who are clueless about the level of buddy skills NWGD is talking about. In one or two dives with our group, through example, explanation and mentor-ship, the team concept clicks in and starts to be immediately applied. That's how I first learned it. I did a dive many years back with NWGD, Uncle Pug, and a couple of other SB folks that changed my diving forever. No fundies class, just watched and asked questions.

Not everyone wants to be a team diver. Ok that. Get yourself a set of doubles and train yourself for independent diving and self-rescue There are plenty of threads on the minimum skills required to be a "safe" solo diver - a task much more daunting than good team diving skills. But just slapping on a pony to avoid becoming a good team diver and then saying you are buddy diving.... I don't think you can have it both ways.

Are you trained to dive solo? Or trained to dive as a team? Either one is better than neither, not just slapping on a pony as an easy out.

I guess the pony is easier, though, because you may never have to use it and therefor test your skills with it. However, good team diving is tested every dive.