To touch or not to touch?

[highdesert]

Using your standard, no diving should ever be allowed. How can you ever be certain that what you have done won't effect the living things..... (also, feeding wild animals does harm them. I would never advocate that.)

It has to do with a little thing called "intent". I am certain that in my time diving I have harmed something, possibly in a way that caused its demise, without even intending to touch it. The issue is whether someone makes a point of touching or handling something just for giggles, and doesn't worry about the results for the critter down the road.

 

[Guba]

Walter: I wasn't doing that. I don't harm things when touching them unless I'm taking them for food, of course. I was referring to this silly statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guba
One has only to look around at sites where divers are unsupervised (all groups to the sanctuary in Coz must be accompanied by a DM, and the FG usually attracts more experienced divers) to see how poorly some coral ecosystems are faring due to contact.

Relax, Seaducer...looks like it's me in Walter's crosshairs...

Let me re-phrase--The sanctuaries in Coz and the Flower Gardens are exactly that...refuges with written regulations about what is and is not allowed. For example, chopping off a chunk of coral is NOT allowed, and those who choose to "do as they please" and go coral collecting are at risk of serious problems. In the FG, the guidelines are a bit more stringent...don't touch anything unless you have a permit. On less regulated reefs, some divers might feel quite a bit more at ease handling the wildlife because they know of no reason not to. That, in my opinion (both personal and scientific), is a situation that can lead to reef degradation. This point is substantiated (but not proven) by the careful monitoring of often visited sites versus those that are more remote, but in which most other factors are similar.

 

[Zieg]

Here is an abstract from the USDA:

ARS | Publication request: OVERVIEW OF THE IMMUNE SYSTEM OF FISH

Here is one part:


And while it may not be the most authoratative, the following is pretty standard fare from aquarium publications, from your kid's 3 gallon tank up to aquariums that people visit.

From Fish Slime Coat

And the relevant part:

[/LEFT]

I dunno, after reading these links, it seems putting fish, or any sea creature for that matter, in an aquarium is a heck of a lot more stressful than just occasionaly tickling a puffer.

I would guess that anybody so concerned about the stress level of fish would not have anything to do with aquariums.

 

[seaducer]

I dunno, after reading these links, it seems putting fish, or any sea creature for that matter, in an aquarium is a heck of a lot more stressful than just occasionaly tickling a puffer.

I would guess that anybody so concerned about the stress level of fish would not have anything to do with aquariums.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Yesterday I had an argument with a DM, coming back from a short boat trip.
It was about whether touching nudibranches & sea slugs bare handed is safe (not stinging human skin).
Although never tried it myself, I know that nudis feed on stinging creatures like Hydras. Based on that my guess was it is NOT ok to touch them.
Just thought to ask about that, maybe somebody had personal experience.

With regards to nudi's, this is a recent thread in the photography forum (with link to another photography forum with much more discussion).

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/underwater-photography/234486-look-but-don-t-touch-unless.html

The above thread debates the ethics of the most famous nature magazine featuring manipulated nudi photo's from one of the most famous marine photographers.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I remember swimming side by side with huge turtles wanting to touch them so badly but just restrained myself because I figured that it would only serve to gratify me and certainly not the turtle.

So when I see pictures of people touching manatees, dolphins, mantas and turtles I just get majorly irked. I mean, I can contain myself, why can't everybody?

I'm sure there are some creatures that don't mind being touched but why touch them anyway? We're in their domain enjoying them in their natural habitat. Can't we do that without interfering. Leave them alone and let them do what they would have done if we weren't there at all.

Depending on where you are diving, there are laws prohibiting harassment of endangered animals; turtles are often protected and harassment is in the eye of the person turning you in.

Here in Hawaii, turtles are protected, but many would not be harassed by divers gently cleaning the algae off their backs. Since they are protected I don't clean them.

There is also a Marine Mammal Protection Act, which prohibits harassment. Just as with the above turtle protection, touching is not necessarily harassment but the only time one could touch a dolphin is when it lets you. When this dolphin comes up to divers, she wants to interact!

After petting her a few times, I picked up my scooter to leave. She got up and tried to lay on one of the other scooters. She is a decommissioned suicide bomber and next time I will grab the dorsal fin for the ride she obviously wants to give!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Which touches on another one of my pet peeves... feeding the sea life.

These shrimp are always happy to be fed. They do this to any open inviting mouth. They will not refuse the next fish mouth because of me!

This thriving pair has been performing this service for years and their offspring do similar work in the surrounding area.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Correct. We as divers are not part of that balance and should endeavor to remain passive when at all possible. Exceptions to that should be absorbed by the ecosystem, but when that exception becomes the rule we tip the balance in ways that are many times surprising. In a bad way.

This is a problem I see with many of the far left reef huggers (and tree huggers). At any popular dive site humans are part of the balance. Most of the reefs I dive are also open to hunters. If I mess with an octopus or lobster to get a picture, it usually hides better when I'm done. If I just take natural pictures, the spear-o watching me can easily take my subject after I leave.

Why is it more accepted to kill and eat over just scaring and photographing?

 

[Walter]

In the FG, the guidelines are a bit more stringent...don't touch anything unless you have a permit.

You are mistaken. The Flower Garden regulations do not prohibit touching everything.

Prohibited or otherwise regulated activities.
(a) Except as specified in paragraphs (c) through (h) of this section, the following activities are prohibited and thus are unlawful for any person to conduct or to cause to be conducted:
(1) Exploring for, developing, or producing oil, gas or minerals except outside of all no-activity zones and provided all drilling cuttings and drilling fluids are shunted to the seabed through a downpipe that terminates an appropriate distance, but no more than ten meters, from the seabed.
(2)(i) Anchoring any vessel within the Sanctuary.
(ii) Mooring any vessel within the Sanctuary, except that vessels 100 feet (30.48 meters) or less in registered length may moor on a Sanctuary mooring buoy.
(3)(i) Discharging or depositing, from within the boundaries of the Sanctuary, any material or other matter except:
(A) Fish, fish parts, chumming materials or bait used in or resulting from fishing with conventional hook and line gear in the Sanctuary;
(B) Biodegradable effluents incidental to vessel use and generated by marine sanitation devices approved in accordance with section 312 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act, as amended, 33 U.S.C. 1322;
(C) Water generated by routine vessel operations (e.g., cooling water, deck wash down, and graywater as defined by section 312 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act, as amended, 33 U.S.C. 1322) excluding oily wastes from bilge pumping;
(D) Engine exhaust; or
(E) In areas of the Sanctuary outside the no-activity zones, drilling cuttings and drilling fluids necessarily discharged incidental to the exploration for, development of, or production of oil or gas in those areas and in accordance with the shunting requirements of paragraph (a)(1) unless such discharge injures a Sanctuary resource or quality.
(ii) Discharging or depositing, from beyond the boundaries of the Sanctuary, any material or other matter, except those listed in paragraphs (a)(3)(i) (A) through (D) of this section, that subsequently enters the Sanctuary and injures a Sanctuary resource or quality.
(4) Drilling into, dredging or otherwise altering the seabed of the Sanctuary (except by anchoring); or constructing, placing or abandoning any structure, material or other matter on the seabed of the Sanctuary.
(5) Injuring or removing, or attempting to injure or remove, any coral or other bottom formation, coralline algae or other plant, marine invertebrate, brine-seep biota or carbonate rock within the Sanctuary.
(6) Taking any marine mammal or turtle within the Sanctuary, except as permitted by regulations, as amended, promulgated under the Marine Mammal Protection Act, as amended, 16 U.S.C. 1361 et seq., and the Endangered Species Act, as amended, 16 U.S.C. 1531 et seq.
(7) Injuring, catching, harvesting, collecting or feeding, or attempting to injure, catch, harvest, collect or feed, any fish within the Sanctuary by use of bottom longlines, traps, nets, bottom trawls or any other gear, device, equipment or means except by use of conventional hook and line gear.
(8) Possessing within the Sanctuary (regardless of where collected, caught, harvested or removed), except for valid law enforcement purposes, any carbonate rock, coral or other bottom formation, coralline algae or other plant, marine invertebrate, brine-seep biota or fish (except for fish caught by use of conventional hook and line gear).
(9) Possessing or using within the Sanctuary, except possessing while passing without interruption through it or for valid law enforcement purposes, any fishing gear, device, equipment or means except conventional hook and line gear.
(10) Possessing, except for valid law enforcement purposes, or using explosives or releasing electrical charges within the Sanctuary.
(b) If any valid regulation issued by any Federal authority of competent jurisdiction, regardless of when issued, conflicts with a Sanctuary regulation, the regulation deemed by the Director as more protective of Sanctuary resources and qualities shall govern.
(c) The prohibitions in paragraphs (a)(2) (i), (iii), and (iv), (4) and (10) of this section do not apply to necessary activities conducted in areas of the Sanctuary outside the no-activity zones and incidental to exploration for, development of, or production of oil or gas in those areas.

 

[fisherdvm]

I dunno, after reading these links, it seems putting fish, or any sea creature for that matter, in an aquarium is a heck of a lot more stressful than just occasionaly tickling a puffer.

I would guess that anybody so concerned about the stress level of fish would not have anything to do with aquariums.

I think zoos and aquariums serve an essential role in research and education. While initially zoos and aquariums might have exploited animals and fish; I believe that most modern zoos play an important part in the preservation of endangered species.

Most aquariums I've seen are stocked with common fish - ones which are abundant, and not endangered. While I don't enjoy seeing manta ray and whale sharks in pools - unless there is a need due to injury; the rest of the fish don't bother me.

We can learn alot about animal and fish behavior, nutrition, disease from confinement in aquariums and zoos. Some of these will directly or indirectly improve the habitat and environment of wildlife. Most aquariums I've seen try to educate the public about reef preservation (with the exception of the one at Atlantis casino - Paradise island, Nassau). From this alone, I think their existence is justified.