Buying a tech BCD prematurely?

[StevenN]

I will be paying twice but at least I got a steal on my BC. I should be able to get my money back on eBay.

 

[RonFrank]

I too am thinking of switching to a single back plate and wings for recreational diving. I like the idea of having everything streamlined.

I'm playing devil's advocate here!

So what is streamlined? Seriously, when I dive my BP/W it IS streamlined, but no less so than my Zeagle Back Inflate setup. In fact with the zeagle, I have the dreaded Octo/Inflator, so I've got one less hose. My weights go into my BC, so I don't have to worry about a weight belt. The BC has a soft shell, and the wing is SMALLER than my 30lbs OMS donut wing.

So what is this talk of being more streamlined? The lack of pockets? Seriously, I think that folks are sold into this idea for the wrong reasons, and being streamlined IMO is not one of them compared to most Back Inflate BCs.

That said I enjoy my BP/W, and agree with a lot of things the BP/W advocates present (or I would not dive with one! ). But I also think that people here are quick to buy into all this hype without having a good reason for diving one.

If you are going to do doubles, yes you need a BP/W. I've been doing doubles with my setup lately, and having a BP/W makes that possible with some borrowed gear without having to resize my kit. Just pull the STA, swap the wing, and mount the tanks! Very nice.

OTOH, technical diving requires a LOT of other things. DIN regs and valves (preferable), the doubles setup, a new wing. Fortunately as I said earlier, techies generally carry a truck load of gear! My buddy shows up with TWO sets of doubles ready to go.... Nice! Makes trying out new things painless, until you decide to buy!

I'm really not trying to talk anyone into, or out of anything. OTOH, I think it's silly to have someone present only one side of the argument.

 

[halocline]

What's more streamlined is the fact that you have nothing on your chest/torso except a single webbing harness. The SS plate provides ballast exactly where most divers need it, between the two sources of buoyancy. (lungs and wing)

Personally, I don't think the octo/inflator adds any streamlining. One less hose, big deal. Instead you have a longer corrugated hose with a much bulkier inflator mechanism.

Zeagle makes nice BCs, but they still have more clips and disconnects, more padding, and (except for the old scout) a cummerbund, which is nice for tuxedos but dumb for a harness.

 

[Nick_W]

Wait, losing one hose doesn't make you streamlined but eliminating a couple of clips does?

And, if cumberbunds are so dumb, why have BCs had them for so long? Someone must think they're a good idea. Some people think a cumberbund makes the BC a little more comfortable. Personally I don't really notice a difference, but if someone else likes it I'm certainly not going to call it dumb.

What is dumb is pretending like the way you dive and the gear you use is the only way to do it.

 

[StevenN]

What I meant by being streamlined is not having the octopus and gauges dragging behind me. I know that I could clip both of those to my BC easily but it just seems that wearing your compass and computer on your wrist with the pressure gauge clipped to a d-ring seems like a good way to go.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with a BC I'm just saying that I think I'd like the BP/W setup.

 

[HenrikBP]

This thread about BP/W - "why not"? turned in some good discussion.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bu...systems/189302-disadvantages-bp-w-if-any.html

I summarized most of the information on page 8 of the thread. After page 9 there's a bit of thread drift.

Henrik

 

[evil_xander]

... Some people think a cumberbund makes the BC a little more comfortable. ...

For those people I'd recommend adding a crotch strap to their BC, whatever type it may be.

If they find a BC not comfortable (if it's a 'little more comfortable', it kinda implies it is uncomfortable in the first place), they must be overthightening the thing. No need to do that.

 

[halocline]

And, if cumberbunds are so dumb, why have BCs had them for so long? Someone must think they're a good idea. Some people think a cumberbund makes the BC a little more comfortable. Personally I don't really notice a difference, but if someone else likes it I'm certainly not going to call it dumb.

What is dumb is pretending like the way you dive and the gear you use is the only way to do it.

First of all, I never said anything even close to "the way I dive and the gear I use is the only way to do it" Where did you get that one?

You're right, someone does think the cummerbund is a good idea; it's the people who build and SELL BCs with them. I'm 98% certain that there are two primary forces that have resulted in the popularity of the typical overloaded jacket BC:

1. Buying decisions are made or at least influenced by trying the gear on in the shop, on land. Who wouldn't feel more comfy in the shop with all that padding? Unfortunately, how it feels in the shop has almost nothing to do with how it acts while diving.
2. PADI and other major certifying agencies place a lot of emphasis on surface situations; hence the ditchable weight mantra and BCs that function as life vests, or at least help to make new divers feel safer at the surface. Given that a large percentage of accidents with new, rec divers do ocurr at the surface (according to PADI and I have no reason to doubt that) this may not be such a bad thing.

People dive with all sorts of gear and make it work for them. But, don't forget that a large segment of the dive-gear buying public is fresh out of certification class and just buying whatever the teacher/shop employee is recommending.

 

[Nick_W]

For those people I'd recommend adding a crotch strap to their BC, whatever type it may be.

If they find a BC not comfortable (if it's a 'little more comfortable', it kinda implies it is uncomfortable in the first place), they must be overthightening the thing. No need to do that.

I have, for my classes, BCs with and without cumberbunds. I've found that, generally speaking, people with a few extra pounds on them tend to complain about waist straps cutting in on them. To be honest, I've never had this problem with or without cumberbunds as I don't have any extra pounds so I don't know, that's just what I'm told.

As for the crotch strap, I have one on my BC, and I still like to tighten the heck out of my waist strap. I don't know why, I just like knowing it isn't going anywhere I guess. I do that with everything I wear that has a waist strap (which now that I think about it is actually quite a few different things).

First of all, I never said anything even close to "the way I dive and the gear I use is the only way to do it" Where did you get that one?

You're right, someone does think the cummerbund is a good idea; it's the people who build and SELL BCs with them. I'm 98% certain that there are two primary forces that have resulted in the popularity of the typical overloaded jacket BC:

1. Buying decisions are made or at least influenced by trying the gear on in the shop, on land. Who wouldn't feel more comfy in the shop with all that padding? Unfortunately, how it feels in the shop has almost nothing to do with how it acts while diving.
2. PADI and other major certifying agencies place a lot of emphasis on surface situations; hence the ditchable weight mantra and BCs that function as life vests, or at least help to make new divers feel safer at the surface. Given that a large percentage of accidents with new, rec divers do ocurr at the surface (according to PADI and I have no reason to doubt that) this may not be such a bad thing.

People dive with all sorts of gear and make it work for them. But, don't forget that a large segment of the dive-gear buying public is fresh out of certification class and just buying whatever the teacher/shop employee is recommending.

I'm sitting here looking at five different BCs I own. Four are traditional jacket styles and one is a BC/BP hybrid thingamabob. None of them have "all that padding" nor are any of them all that horribly unstreamlined.

You should keep in mind that anot every diver takes diving as seriously as some people around here. You should keep in mind that for your real average diver (not the SB average diver) that jacket BC is going to work just fine for that one or two vacations a year to go dive to 45 feet to look at fish for an hour or so. I've been around scuba for a little bit, and this is the one and only place where any time someone asks about BCs you have 15 people jumping saying BP/W is the only way to go. That should tell you something. And if you say that tells you that the vast, vast majority of people participating in scuba are wrong, then that will tell me something about you.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I've been around scuba for a little bit, and this is the one and only place where any time someone asks about BCs you have 15 people jumping saying BP/W is the only way to go. That should tell you something. And if you say that tells you that the vast, vast majority of people participating in scuba are wrong, then that will tell me something about you.

Using a BC doesn't make any body "wrong" and advocating a BP&W doesn't make one a zealot.

If every new scuba diver had the same access to Jacket BC's and BP&W's your contention that the current high percentage of Jacket BC users validates the basic jacket design would have some merit.

The fact remains that the vast, vast majority of new scuba divers have not even seen a BP&W, have not spoken to a BP&W user, and has no easy way to try one. The same is not true for Jacket BC's. The new diver is typically "immersed" in the benefits of the Jacket BC from the moment they start their training.

It is worth noting that there are very few divers who transition to a BP&W from a Jacket that choose to go back to a jacket. There are a few, but the vast, vast majority of divers who have the opportunity to try a BP&W stick with it.

The vast, vast majority of the worlds population lacks indoor plumbing. My guess is they would choose to use it if their access to it was equal to what they have now....

Tobin