vladimir
The Voice of Reason
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Being of Sound Mind...
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1_T_Submariner
Contributor
offthewall1, Might I suggest you spend a little more time reading and answering questions than giving lectures to new divers. I know I have read this and another thread "An Open Letter...." That are both rants to new divers, give them a break they have enough to learn.
OP
Lets revisit this... I was not rude to the divemaster. I laughed at her and she laughed with me.... "laughing in her face" was taken out of context. The crew rightly did away with the tangle line. Noone was offended. I laughed because as she espoused the lines benefit... the person coming up the ladder tripped and fell over the line tangled around their leg (of course I didn't laugh until I knew they were alright - and we all laughed.) The point here is that in 8 - 10 ft seas, a tag line is not a good idea. A tag line isbest utilized in strong current. The current keeps the line out straight and less likely to tangle. In 8-10 ft seas with no current, the line becomes a jumbled up mess. There are times to use a tag line and there are time not. The point here is that without someone correcting an incorrect crew - someone could have gotten seriously hurt while the blind were leading the blind. Luckily the person who fell to the deck and the person whose face smashed into the ladder were not seriously injured. Neither would have been injured if the tag line wasn't in use. When I have some time, I'll post video of the "tangle line" as is shows even the divemaster getting tangled up in it and struggling to get her leg out of it. It also shows the 8-10 ft seas for you doubters...
So who are the newly minted divers supposed to listen too???
Do they just get on the boats and assume that the diver operators are complete idiots??? Do they just place full trust in the precious little their scuba instructor taught them????Why would a newly minted diver be on a boat in 8-10 foot seas??? Those conditions would be well beyond the capabilities of the newly minted diver as well as most other divers.
I doubt you intend for things to come across this way but IMO, you are coming across as arrogant, pompous and self aggrandizing.
OP
Newly minted divers should listen to themselves. The same as most people do in real life... which is where diving takes place. Dive Operators and Instructors are human too...myself included... and not perfect. There are times when I'm right and there are times when I'm wrong. The whole point is that new divers should not follow blindly just because someone present holds more certification levels than they do. New divers should listen to the dive leaders then come to their own conclusions as to whether it makes sense.
When you dive enough, all over the world... you see good and bad from dive leaders. This was simply an example of a bad... which I added was quickly corrected when the error of their ways was pointed out. This actually makes them good dive leaders. They were not pompous *****es who thought they knew everything. This post was started to encourage new divers to accept their training - then think for themselves. This is how we all grow as divers.
I would disagree that newly minted divers are not ready for 8-10 ft seas. I suppose if you haven't had proper training - then no, you wouldn't be ready. Our group of 20 dive travelers was a mixed group ranging in age from 25 - 70, men and women with dive experience ranging from less than 20 dives to more than 1000. Of the 20 divers, 2 sat out the dives because they knew it wasn't for them, 2 got sick on the boat because they thought they could handle it and they couldn't, the other 16 dove without incident, accept for the injuries due to the tangle line.
Under your thinking, all 20 should have not been out there. Of the 16 who were out there, 4 had less than 20 dives logged and all dove and returned to the boat safely. The person who tripped over the tangle line was experienced with more than 15 years and 250 logged dives and the one injured on the ladder had more experience than that.
In the real world, everything and anything can happen. Accidents can happen at any time to anyone. The only moral to the initial post and the point that was being made - is dive leaders are human too... and not always right. Myself Included. I just happen to be a dive leader who is not a pompous ***... and I can represent us all by speaking the truth others wont speak. Some dive leaders think they are god... I don't happen to be one of them.
When you dive enough, all over the world... you see good and bad from dive leaders. This was simply an example of a bad... which I added was quickly corrected when the error of their ways was pointed out. This actually makes them good dive leaders. They were not pompous *****es who thought they knew everything. This post was started to encourage new divers to accept their training - then think for themselves. This is how we all grow as divers.
I would disagree that newly minted divers are not ready for 8-10 ft seas. I suppose if you haven't had proper training - then no, you wouldn't be ready. Our group of 20 dive travelers was a mixed group ranging in age from 25 - 70, men and women with dive experience ranging from less than 20 dives to more than 1000. Of the 20 divers, 2 sat out the dives because they knew it wasn't for them, 2 got sick on the boat because they thought they could handle it and they couldn't, the other 16 dove without incident, accept for the injuries due to the tangle line.
Under your thinking, all 20 should have not been out there. Of the 16 who were out there, 4 had less than 20 dives logged and all dove and returned to the boat safely. The person who tripped over the tangle line was experienced with more than 15 years and 250 logged dives and the one injured on the ladder had more experience than that.
In the real world, everything and anything can happen. Accidents can happen at any time to anyone. The only moral to the initial post and the point that was being made - is dive leaders are human too... and not always right. Myself Included. I just happen to be a dive leader who is not a pompous ***... and I can represent us all by speaking the truth others wont speak. Some dive leaders think they are god... I don't happen to be one of them.
OP
Just one look and you know... (JK)
They knew because the first day was kind of an accidental test. The seas were very rough on the "better" side of the island so to get us out diving they took us to the "calm" side of the island... which on this day wasn't too calm itself. Our first day we did a cove in just 50 ft of water, but the wind was blowing about 25-30 knots and the waves were (they said) 6-8 ft in the protected cove. They debated putting us in the water at all... but they were convinced (not by me - I could have taken it or left it,) to let us go in.
The two dives that day went without incident. At the end of the day we were informed that we would not be able to go to the "better" side probably until the 4th day of the trip and that there may be no diving tomorrow. well tomorrow came and we all went down to the boat. I was shocked that we were going out at all... then as we went, we ended up on the better side of the island. The Captain called the waves 8-10ft and that would have been my guess. I asked him how we ended up there and I was told that they had discussed our group with the Dive Operations Manager and he approved us to go based on our previous day's dives.
I've been in other resorts where the boats would not have moved regardless of the cert level or experience of the group... so it impressed me that these were people willing to go the extra mile to get their guests in the water. Some might think it unsafe, but if you're a northeast coastal diver, you call this another day of diving.
In any event, other than the tangle line (which to me was just a carribean - warm, calm water divemaster fopah,) the resort was great, the dive staff great and the diving great... We only had to deal with that for the first day... then it was done away with.... Happy Diving!
offthewall1:
I wasn't disputing your group being in 8-10' seas...Just didn't sound like very good conditions to be out in...Glad everything turned out well for everyone...
1_T_Submariner
Contributor
ItsBruce
Contributor
Rule #1: The Captain's Is Always Right.
Exception To Rule #1: When you are absolutely certain the Captain is wrong, then, you should refer to rule #1.
It is impossible to tell whether disregarding the Captain's orders would have produced a better or worse result in any given situation. While diving without a tag line might have produced less problems on a subsequent dive, there is no way to tell what would have happened had the tag line not been used on the one dive. Unless a tag line is NEVER justified, then only the Captain has the right to decide if it is justified in the particular situation. Who are YOU to substitute your opinion for the judgment of the Captain?
Someone commented about 99% versus 1%. Even if it was 50/50, who are YOU to say which 50 it is? And, what if one decides to disregard the Captain and to do something his or her own way, and he, she or someone else is injured in the process? That person had better hope the injury was fatal and that he or she was the victim ... otherwise there will be the devil to pay.
Unless the situation demands immediate and decisive action, it is ok to ask the Captain if he or she would like your opinion. It might even be ok to offer the opinion without an invitation. But, unless the Captain's directives are followed, then it is a free-for-all.
NOTE: The Captain may delegate responsibility for dive operations to the Dive Master, in which case replace "Captain" with "Dive Master" in all of the above.
Exception To Rule #1: When you are absolutely certain the Captain is wrong, then, you should refer to rule #1.
It is impossible to tell whether disregarding the Captain's orders would have produced a better or worse result in any given situation. While diving without a tag line might have produced less problems on a subsequent dive, there is no way to tell what would have happened had the tag line not been used on the one dive. Unless a tag line is NEVER justified, then only the Captain has the right to decide if it is justified in the particular situation. Who are YOU to substitute your opinion for the judgment of the Captain?
Someone commented about 99% versus 1%. Even if it was 50/50, who are YOU to say which 50 it is? And, what if one decides to disregard the Captain and to do something his or her own way, and he, she or someone else is injured in the process? That person had better hope the injury was fatal and that he or she was the victim ... otherwise there will be the devil to pay.
Unless the situation demands immediate and decisive action, it is ok to ask the Captain if he or she would like your opinion. It might even be ok to offer the opinion without an invitation. But, unless the Captain's directives are followed, then it is a free-for-all.
NOTE: The Captain may delegate responsibility for dive operations to the Dive Master, in which case replace "Captain" with "Dive Master" in all of the above.
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