Why NOT DIR?

[Thalassamania]

Well, the only benefit I can see to having a diver and his rig separately neutral is for that case.

If you are strapped in tight, and your rig is balanced, and your weight is not going to come loose, who cares if its the diver or the rig that's neutral? Doesn't make any difference as far as I can see until you come out of it.

I you need to remove your rig whilst beneath the surface, and your rig is very negative (thus you are very positive) you are in a very dangerous position.

 

[limeyx]

I you need to remove your rig whilst beneath the surface, and your rig is very negative (thus you are very positive) you are in a very dangerous position.

In this entire conversation no one has ever advocated ditching a rig underwater, what one earth is that all about?

So like I said, I keep my rig on underwater. What other situations does your "solution" help with?

Like I said, I keep my rig with me.
In Open water, when we had to do U/w gear remove/replace I held onto my rig once I was out of it.

 

[Thalassamania]

So like I said, I keep my rig on underwater. What other situations does your "solution" help with?

Like I said, I keep my rig with me.
In Open water, when we had to do U/w gear remove/replace I held onto my rig once I was out of it.

I sincerely hope that you don't find yourself in a spot that you are unprepared to deal with.

 

[Codyjp]

I couldn't find the emotion for smiley distance peeing contest...

 

[Spady]

Yeah, it's hilarious to be the guy on the dive boat being told "sorry, but I don't dive with strokes."

It's the sort of experience that makes everyone just want to dive more!

To be fair, I'm glad DIR exists if for no other reason than that you get to read stuff like this:

http://www.keithl.org.uk/diving/dirfun/dirlfe/

Thanks for posting that. Totally Hilarious!

 

[Thalassamania]

Thanks for posting that. Totally Hilarious!

It's here on SB, in "Why DIR Sucks" if you'd rather: DIR, not just for Diving

 

[limeyx]

I sincerely hope that you don't find yourself in a spot that you are unprepared to deal with.

It is a theoretical possibility that I would have to remove my gear without the aid of my buddy.

However, first I have to get into that situation and have no buddy to assist me.
Definitely possible.

Then, what do I do if I am
1) In a cave?
2) Have 30 mins mandatory deco to do?

So the flip side is, that I'd rather not lump a large weightbelt for all the rerasons RJack stated (although I usually do wear an 8 pound belt in doubles, that will not make me neutral. In singles I have a larger belt and probably actually very close to neutral)

I actually agree, that it'd be a bonus if the diver were close (enough) to neutral, but for the extremely rare chance of needing to abandon my gear, I trade off the convenience of smaller or no weight-belts.

EDIT:

And please don't think I am saying it is impossible for GUE divers to have to abandon their rigs u/w
I know for 100% sure that it's possible that people with (far) more GUE training than me can get into that situation.
It's just that I rather not make all of my diving more difficult just for this one remote possibility

If I *was* doing the kind of diving that had a high percentage chance of having to abandon gear I'd

1) Question my sanity and whether it was worth it
2) Probably do something similar to what you suggest (as well as plenty of other things to improve safety) if for some reason I was held at knifepoint

 

[Thalassamania]

It is a theoretical possibility that I would have to remove my gear without the aid of my buddy.

However, first I have to get into that situation and have no buddy to assist me.
Definitely possible.

Then, what do I do if I am
1) In a cave?
2) Have 30 mins mandatory deco to do?

One more time, slowly now:

----------

You

are

not

ditching

your

gear!

----------

You're taking your rig off to untangle or fix, and then putting it back on and proceeding according to plan.

So the flip side is, that I'd rather not lump a large weightbelt for all the rerasons RJack stated (although I usually do wear an 8 pound belt in doubles, that will not make me neutral. In singles I have a larger belt and probably actually very close to neutral)

I actually agree, that it'd be a bonus if the diver were close (enough) to neutral, but for the extremely rare chance of needing to abandon my gear, I trade off the convenience of smaller or no weight-belts.

If you are referring to:

Weightbelts can still: lurch around
loosen during a dive
rotate during a dive
require tightening during a dive
slide up or down during a dive
Basically make themselves a PITA

Recall that those were clearly dealt with:

Clearly you have never used a rubber belt with a wire bail buckle. The only one of the things you list that such a belt does is , "slide up or down during a dive," and then only when you want it to in order to adjust pitch. I'd say the same for the SeaQuest, but it does reguire tightening on occasion, which is incredibly easy and safe to do.

I agree, when only a few lbs are in play, who cares where it goes.

What is it about cave diving that makes is, "not one of those circumstances?" And remember we've already dealt with the BS about loss and entanglement.

I've had the chance to examine, in detail, over 2000 diving fatality cases and there's one thing that blasts through all the confusion and clutter: rarely does a diving fatality stem from a single cause, it's almost always the result of a multiple series of cascading failures. And there's one really important lesson that I've learned that I credit with having saved my bacon a few times: the effective ability to deal with any one of the items will stop the chain reaction. Being able to remove and replace ones rig is just one of those items, not some end all/be all that defines you as a "good diver" or a "bad diver."

We all evaluate what we need for personal and team safety and then we and our team live and dive by those choices. We choose to be diver neutral/rig neutral, it is one of our core values, it costs us nothing, it does not obviate a DIR style balanced rig, and with the proper selection of belt (or harness if you'd rather) it does not create any risk. I can not, for the life of me, see why anyone would do otherwise.

The entire objection to being diver neutral/rig neutral seems to stem from the very reasonable rejection (a rejection that we made almost 50 years ago) of an unsafe type of weight belt buckle without any consideration of the rather simple alternatives available. Get a rubber belt and try it, you may be surprised, and the life you save might be your own, might be your team mates'. Or it might never be an issue, but, if nothing else, it will help your trim.

When you only need a few pounds of lead a V-weight works reliably and does not pose these issues. Under certain circumstances weightbelts work better. Cave diving, partciluarly in MX where LCF is headed, is not one of those circumstances.

When it's just a few lbs. we're all in agreement it's a non-issue, especially if it is within your breath cycle's range. While caving diving may not have the entanglement/separation issues that the ocean does, Doing It Right is Doing It Right and is supposed to feature thinking divers configuring their gear for minimum risk in ALL ENVIRONMENTS.

 

[limeyx]

One more time, slowly now:

----------

You

are

not

ditching

your

gear!

----------

You're taking your rig off to untangle or fix, and then putting it back on and proceeding according to plan.

So then I simply keep ahold of my gear while I untangle myself (since I am likely to have to still be breathing from it -- unless I am supposed to donkey-mount my buddy and breathe his hose!)

I am having a hard time seeing exactly what is going to require me to take off my gear, *and* have my buddy in such a place that they cannot help.
Even in that remote case, as long as I loop an arm through my harness, I am still weighted down.

Wearing anything more than 8-12 pounds on the belt is something I really dislike, although (partly through laziness) I use 16 in singles because I dont have a heavier backplate.

 

[Thalassamania]

So then I simply keep ahold of my gear while I untangle myself (since I am likely to have to still be breathing from it -- unless I am supposed to donkey-mount my buddy and breathe his hose!)

I am having a hard time seeing exactly what is going to require me to take off my gear, *and* have my buddy in such a place that they cannot help.
Even in that remote case, as long as I loop an arm through my harness, I am still weighted down.

Wearing anything more than 8-12 pounds on the belt is something I really dislike, although (partly through laziness) I use 16 in singles because I don't have a heavier backplate.

Let's say you and your buddy are both fouled in a net that's snagged on a wreck, not a particularly far fetched position. Keeping ahold of your gear is easier said then done since you are buoyed up by the same force that it is dragged down. You take your rig off, made doubly difficult by the continuous web, and now you only have one hand to untangle with since the other is occupied preventing you from separating from your rig with extreme prejudice. Me thinks I'd rather not be lazy and wear a belt.