Wreck Diving Vs Cave diving

[bm9]

They both have the potential to be dangerous and for different reasons. Most of my wreck diving is done on lake michigan(great lakes) and I feel that with a few exceptions wreck diving(penetration) is the more dangerous of the two, but not by much.

with wreck diving you have: current, changing conditions, rusty wrecks that may be structurally deteriorating and have the potential for collapsing, loose cables and entanglement hazards.

combine that with having to carry your deco gases with you the whole dive, and the possibility of doing drift deco. versus in a cave where you drop your deco bottles and stages on the way in and they are conveniently waiting for your return.

also in cave diving ( at least the kind I do-mexico cenotes) you usually dont have to contend with open water currents and rough water for your deco

Where cave diving can be more dangerous however is the penetration differences. Depending on the dive you can be 2500-thousands of feet back in the cave. If there was a problem you could have a swim of over 45 min, just to reach the cave entrance, or more(and then you would still have to deal with the deco ceiling). I don't know of any wrecks that put you that far into a physical overhead environment.

 

[nyresq]

the penetration lengths and dive times in a cave is what makes it dangerous. you have no where near the same penetration distance in a wreck or the hours of time in the water that you will see commonplace in the serious cave dives. however in a cave there is little risk of a wall and ceiling collapse. and as stated before you can dump some gear along the way and pick it up on the way out, and your lines will tend to be there on your way out as well. Not too many cave walls that will cut through your line while your on it... wreck diving, what you got is whats attached to you. can't leave it on the anchor line, cause it may not be there when you get back.

I think as rebreathers become more common the sport of cave diving will see further and further penetrations by less experienced divers with money to spend.
I don't think rebreathers will effect wreck diving too much untill they get much smallers and rugged for the rough and tumble enviorment of a rusted steel wreck.

I'm not a cave diving fan, to me they all look the same, some rock and water... big deal. But I do respect the divers who do these incredible distance penetrations (4000+ ft ?!?!), I don't know how you fit your ba^^s in your drysuits...

And for doppler, have you ever dove the doria? try a two hour deco hang in 40 degree water,with a 20 knot current trying to pull you off the line, while sharks come up and bump you in the back, then surface in 5 foot white caps and get back on board with all your gear... The north atlantic ain't no lake...
So what would be your everest dive?

I'm not bashing bro, I haven't dove it yet (no trimix cert and think deep air is stupid) but crewed on a boat for a trip and know what its like out there. It ain't ginnie springs...
:wacko:

 

[Waterlover]

nyresq once bubbled...
the penetration lengths and dive times in a cave is what
I'm not a cave diving fan, to me they all look the same, some rock and water... big deal. But I do respect the divers who do these incredible distance penetrations (4000+ ft ?!?!), I don't know how you fit your ba^^s in your drysuits...

And for doppler, have you ever dove the doria? try a two hour deco hang in 40 degree water,with a 20 knot current trying to pull you off the line, while sharks come up and bump you in the back, then surface in 5 foot white caps and get back on board with all your gear... The north atlantic ain't no lake...
So what would be your everest dive?


Butch hasn't taught you well enough you have allot to learn.....

 

[nyresq]

ok water lover, please shine some light into my ignorant eyes

 

[gjmmotors]

SOmeone said....
And for doppler, have you ever dove the doria? try a two hour deco hang in 40 degree water,with a 20 knot current trying to pull you off the line, while sharks come up and bump you in the back, then surface in 5 foot white caps and get back on board with all your gear... The north atlantic ain't no lake...
So what would be your everest dive?


20 knot current? I dont care who you are thats a hell of a current to hold yourself onto a line for. That wanna be governer from cali couldnt hang for the two hours on that......
DOing a 230fsw dive on 15/40 for 20 minutes
would give you about 53 minutes of deco plus 20 bt for a run time of 73 minutes.
A 35 minute bt would bring you closer to two hours.
However thats a lot of gas to bring with you.
My everest would have to be something worth dying for.
I can buy doria china on e-bay.
for me to get my own china.......
Assuming perfect weather for your trip out and 5 dives over three days, boat is 900 bucks for the trip. gas has to be close to 700$ for mix and deco. How much for gear,
5-10 grand?
Id rather be in florida living in the back of my truck and diving caves.
I didnt know butch did traing for ocean divers. I was under the impression he just did it for the typical psd mud crawlers.
-g

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Ok, i agree to a certian extent..... but, given the both, if your at greater depths on a wreck, doing a 2 hour deco stop, and you have trouble down there and have to blow your deco stop, to me theres no differnce if your 2000' into a cave, or 200' feet down in the ocean, both will have deadly consecenses. Cave divers carry complet redundet gear, and know there bottles are there as they exit the caves, where there at, and don't have to worry about being blown away from them, having stong currents to deal with to get to them, and hoping you come out the right side of a wreck as your bottels are on. So wether your 2000' feet in, or 200' feet down, to me it's all the same, but i havn't seen and cave divers yet say they were blown away from there deco bottles, vis droped when they came back to the same spot due to changing currnet's, (caves always flow the same way, willnt change like ocean currents will in a matter of hours) and i never seen a cave diver yet have to deal with hanging cables, walls collapsing in on them due to the wreck decaying, sharks hitting them in the back, and so on........ hopfully a caver can add to this, and tell me why other then deeper pentration is a (harder) dive then wreck diving I don't want to sound like im bashing the caver's either, i myself consider both the "Elite" of the diver's, and both take tremdous skils and archivment's !!
Just to myself, i find cave diving alot less challanging so far at this time in my life. If somone can add to this i would love to hear it, with every post i try to learn somthing new and put it to my diving skills, so hopfully one day there not sending a search and rescue team in for me

 

[nyresq]

Ok so I am no good at measuring current in the open ocean, so I guess 20 knots was an exaggeration, but I can tell you the current was moving fast enough to need two hands or a jon line to keep yourself steady on the line.

As for run times, two hours is about right for most guys. the bottom time plus their ascent time plus deco normally runs around two hours.

And who said anything was worth dying for. I was always under the impression that the reference to "the everest dive" was more in terms of people, who have trained for years and been to extream depths, time and time again to hone their skills, before they would dive the doria. I don't see anything worth dying for any place underwater. And I don't see that anyone who has gone through the proper training and experience dive anywhere or anything with the thought its worth dying for.

And no, butch doesn't teach ocean diving, but he does teach diving in currents, total blackout conditions, streamlining your equipment, and how to handle emergencies that may arise in these situations. and it has saved my a$$ a few times, both in the "mud" and in the ocean.

waterlover, I stated I'm not into cave diving and have only dove in a cave for a grand total of 4 dives. My opinions on cave diving have nothing to do with my level of training but more on having several friends who cave dive on a regular basis, and having watched the changes in the scuba tec industry. I also pointed out that I have the utmost respect for cave divers as I myself do not think with any amount of training I would feel safe a half mile from the surface. But if you feel you are the Yoda who can educate me, then please, point to the error of my beliefs.
I am not a caver nor do I claim to be, but I will go toe to toe with any diver inside a silted out wreck while your tangled in a hanging mess of wires. And then my friend I will be glad that butch taught me well.

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

I love these stories of hanging lines, rusted out wrecks, The Everest of dives!!! Now were talking I dive Wreck in Florida in warm tropical waters all year round, i would love to here more stories of what you guys go thorugh on the Northen wrecks!! Thanks, im loving it!!

 

[Waterlover]

nyresq once bubbled...
ok water lover, please shine some light into my ignorant eyes

You've never dove the Doria and only 4 dives in caves and you speak as though your an expert. I'll just use your reference of 20 knot currents I'll believe Doppler long before I put credibility in anything you have to say.....He's been there done that....

 

[Doppler]

nyresq once bubbled...

And for doppler, have you ever dove the doria? try a two hour deco hang in 40 degree water,with a 20 knot current trying to pull you off the line, while sharks come up and bump you in the back, then surface in 5 foot white caps and get back on board with all your gear... The north atlantic ain't no lake...
So what would be your everest dive?

Of course I have dove the Doria. What credibility would there be in my opinions of it as a dive if they were not based on experience... what kind of fool would form an opinion based on heresay... How about you? You asked a question and I have given you what I thought was an Honest and Informed response. Jezzz.

Have been on a couple of trips to the Doria... Have been blown off it too... never noticed a 20 Knot current and did not get bumped by sharks there... did once diving North Carolina... actually, it skimmed my head. Neat experience.

I have tried two hour hangs in cold water... I don't like it much and since using a different algorithm for trimix dives (I only have about 550 mix dives so I am still learning about this stuff) I have found that even with a long bottom time (say 30 minutes at 240) I can get up to the last stop at 20 feet at about 95 minutes of run time so the pain of the cold water is not so great.

One memorable hang in cold water was on one of my first dives on the Empress of Ireland and that was bloody cold... with strange variable currents... my guess would be that they peaked at four knots but would drop to zero in a matter of minutes and then hit from a different direction. Strange and weird. Twenty knots seems kinda high... where did you hang in a 20 knot current for god's sake!?

You also seem to be dismissive of the power of storms in the Great Lakes. Have you dove in the Lakes? Don't forget that ships like the Fitz have floundered in Great Lakes storms! The wave patterns in the Lakes are different to those in the ocean... try to have a conversation sometime with captains who have experience with both... it might open your eyes. Of course some of the most vicious weather and biggest seas are off the coast of South Africa. I admire the divers from that area... tough bastards who know how to rig and dive for big seas and strong drift.

Now, I don't want to give the impression that I am being dissmissive about the toughness of the dives in the Atlantic -- or anyplace else. The original question asked about differences... the similarities are worth thinking about too. Technical diving is tough, whether in a cave or a wreck: in warm water or in cold; fresh or salt water.

I have been lucky enough to get to dive wrecks and caves around the world and base my statement that the Doria is not the Everest of wreck dives on experience and an understanding of what it takes to organize and successfully execute a complex "expedition." Of dives I have done, I would rate the Gunilda or Superior City more of an Everest than the Doria. Of dives I would like to do, the Lusitania comes to mind... or the Fitz.

Of course, these days people buy their way up Everest... so perhaps the analogy with the Doria is apt.

Any questions. please ask. And by the way, I am not trying to be discourteous to you. But you really should check out who you're challenging with your "As for so-and-so, have you ever done such and such" before you post. Chances are that if I write about something, I've done it.