Worst trend in Scuba Diving instruction many of us have ever seen...Avoid Groupon!

[MXGratefulDiver]

I just dont want to see dive instruction get any closer to "made in Taiwan", just so it can be CHEAPER.

I suspect "made in Taiwan" just doesn't have the connotation that it used to have with respect to quality ... my guess would be that, like here, there are probably good and bad instructors there.

I'd love to dive in Kenting sometime ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[fjpatrum]

I think this is showing that the internet can be mis-used, as can traditional medias as well. I have always supported scubaboard, and you, and can't really imagine how you could be villified for what scubaboard has achieved....if you refer to a specific legal battle, you know all of us are behind you on that.

As to the mis-use of groupofcheap, I think it is an extremely powerful way to get people to make a choice primarily because of some huge percieved SAVINGS , and with diving, the mindset needs to be about what is good, and functional...Diving should not be lead with price at the expense and non-existence of all else.


The Internet did not explode as a great method for sleazy marketers like cheapgroups-are-us, to push junk with. It began as a great way to get research information out, then more information, then traditional websites showing services and products, etc. It has evolved, and the cheapgroups-R-us types are now globbing on, and de-evolving the good directions of the net that once dominated....

Just remember back to around 1996...you could do a yahoo search for a company or a product,( if they were on the web yet) , and the actual company would come up in the first 3 responses to your search..... Today, you could get 8 pages of nextag or other third party advertisers, that are NOT the web pages you are looking for---they have overwhelmed the search engines to the point that the company you are looking for can be almost imposible to find.

Right now the cheap-groups-R-us type advertising is a threat.... It is this thinking that has Americans buying junk from Taiwan instead of made in America.....I had a kitchen with appliances in it from 1972, that we finally upgraded to the best we could find at Home Expo in 2006....The made in America appliances from 72 lasted 30 years..the best of the new stuff ( pretty much all with "made in Taiwan" parts) are already on the 2nd or 3rd warranty repair, and are of no where near the quality of the 70's and made in America..... and this is what you get, when you allow the MEDIA to control public perception of value with cheap-groups-R-us type top of mind advertising.

I just dont want to see dive instruction get any closer to "made in Taiwan", just so it can be CHEAPER.

Oh, please don't turn this into a (more) political thread! The Made in the USA thing may have a place for discussion, but this probably isn't it. There are plenty of quality products made overseas and plenty of crap made here in the USA. As for your internet searches, try something other than Yahoo. Their search results always turn up more marketing (in my experience) because that's what drives them. Google does the same thing, to a certain extent, but I find their actual search results more relevant and they seem to limit their "paid advert" type results to a clearly delineated section. There are other options too.

Again, as has been said, this isn't a "groupon" or similar service type problem, it's an instruction problem. Arguably it's a cultural shift toward instant gratification problem, but that's another philosophical argument entirely.

 

[The Chairman]

I have always supported scubaboard, and you, and can't really imagine how you could be villified for what scubaboard has achieved....if you refer to a specific legal battle, you know all of us are behind you on that.

Thanks Dan, I was referring to the Dive Shops themselves. ScubaBoard and the Internet have been decried as the bane of the industry for a long time. Even now, DEMA seems to be dead set against us. Why? They don't have control over the media they used to enjoy with the traditional forms of broadcasting.

As to the mis-use of groupofcheap, I think it is an extremely powerful way to get people to make a choice primarily because of some huge percieved SAVINGS , and with diving, the mindset needs to be about what is good, and functional...Diving should not be lead with price at the expense and non-existence of all else.

This isn't a new phenomenon, my friend. Classes have been used as a loss leader for decades in order to attract people to the shop to buy gear. Now there has been a paradigm shift and shops are finding it hard to keep their instructors busy. The economic forces were turning way before Groupon, and we are going to see a lot more evolution because of it.

The Internet did not explode as a great method for sleazy marketers like cheapgroups-are-us, to push junk with.

There is a law about the conservation of usefulness. For every positive use there is also an equal and opposite abuse. Nuclear energy can light up a city or demolish it. Religion can bring peace or war. The Internet brings a lot of information as well as disinformation.

Just remember back to around 1996...

Drop back to 1966... they don't make cars like that anymore, and THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT! I remember doing tune ups every 6,000 miles (about twice a year). We did head jobs at around 100,000 and the AC barely worked. My 2006 Honda has 190,000 miles and is on its second set of plugs. ITS SECOND SET OF PLUGS!!! I replaced the water pump with the timing belt at about 150,000 miles and its had several sets of brakes and tires and one broken rear spring (Goat trails in Utah), but it has been one remarkable vehicle. Compared to my 1966 English Ford Cortina MkII and there is no question which is the better car.

If you want to see a graphic of how Scuba Diving was "back in the day", go watch the diving scene from Jaws II (circa 1978). WOW! Bad diving has been around a long, long time.

 

[TheOldGuy]

This is not the problem of Groupon. Poor diver quality and ability is the natural product of cheap. It's the way the world goes around. Instructors who are being paid 25% of their worth are being benevolent when they impart 70% of the knowledge and skills a student could obtain with a regular class.

A baker using this service who advertises a a cake at half price can, and will, simply bake a smaller cake. It's like my old friend Ton Staafl once said, "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

 

[danvolker]

And back to the original gripe..."cheap"....is causing a very special resource, to be a "cheap training sand pit", for a very large and cheap set of divers.

Maybe I am back to going out every weekend and shooting video or stills of the best, and the worst dive classes, and then letting everyone know the identity of the shop responsible for each.... A Best and Worst News post could go out each week with this. How many shops would want to be known as being synonomous with videos like YouTube - ‪silting-instruction‬‏ , or, the even more pitiful ones we could get if we actually looked for really bad classes ?

And the really Good instructors deserve the recognition and publicity they could get from this.... I think having new potential divers actually SEE a comparision of dive classes at the BHB could be very cool..." Do you want this... or this.. ? "

 

[NavyGreg]

Just my .02-

I'm not going to knock anybody for having buoyancy issues on an OW checkout dive. I was a beginner not too long ago and am still learning things. I also don't blame dive shops for looking for cheaper alternatives when it comes to marketing themselves. This is a tough economy, and it's even tougher on businesses that provide services not considered necessities. I'm sure many of us have had to look at our respective budgets and cut out things that didn't keep the lights on and out bellies full. My concern is that an instructor would not look at a particular class and realize their collective skill level is such that they should be starting out in a less sensitive environment. When my wife and I were first certified a few years ago, we were told that our check out dives would be in one of three areas, dependent on how the pool session went. I understand that many dive shops may be limited by geography as to where they can go. However, a dive professional, such as an instructor, should be able to evaluate a class and realize that they should not be in the middle of an environmentally sensitive area. I understand wanting to expose a group of new divers to the excitement of diving an area such as BHB, but there are still areas around the bridge where this can be done without potentially damaging the area and/or ruining the experience for other divers.

 

[DennisS]

BHB is a great place for new divers to learn and practice their skills. Each new wave of trainees will stir up the bottom as we all did while learning. It's a relatively safe place for new divers to start adding to their dives after they have completed OW. That new diver who is churning up the bottom while he is looking for his inflator hose has just as much right to be there as the photographer with 1000s of dives and thousands in camera gear. BHB is not a photography preserve. The internet has made BHB and LBTS "go to spots" for every new diver. It's popularity has turned it into a diving traffic jam on some weekends.

 

[Frosty]

Hmm--a thought on this subject. I'm of the opinion -perhaps misguided that keeping ther dive industry alive is like keeping any sport alive. You need to "feed the funnel"
Basicly from 100 divers that might have this group dive experience 10 will actually have the desire to progress on to further training. The other 90 might never dive again but 50 of em will rave to their freinds about this exciting thing they did and maybee their freinds try it.

 

[Thalassamania]

That is one approach, a poor one I feel. You could also qualify the 100 better and wind up training 50 who, with adequate training and the resultant comfort do not drop out after a few dives and go on to buy that second tier of gear, a drysuit, a camera, a can light, maybe a scooter. All that is lost is a few sales of certifications and materials and a few mask, fin and snorkel sales.

 

[Darianis]

I was a member of one of the groupon classes that Dan is griping about and I see both sides of the issue. I will agree that the class was far too large and those of us that were more comfortable in the water were given far less attention than the ones who were struggling. We did spend all day in the pool, at least 6 hours in total working on skills. I don't think the training I got was as good as if I had gotten it in a one on one situation. But having said that if I hadn't seen the gropun I would not have gotten either and wouldn't have my OWC now. I have recently bought a full set of gear and am pursuing more training. All of this is a result of being able to get my OWC for 150 instead of 400. I also have a good friend who is also preparing to get his OWC as a result of the feedback I have been giving him.

All in all I think it's a wash sure some sites get crowded sometimes but the result is more divers like me who love the sport but would have otherwise never tried it.