Wool-lined Pinnacle wetsuits??

[jonnythan]

But neoprene itself is a poor insulator at depth, correct?

I do happen to know from long, personal (non-scuba) experience that wool is an excellent insulator when wet, maybe one of the best. FWIW, I have no idea how this would apply to wetsuits.

It's a lot better than wool no matter what the depth, I assure you. Neoprene is the next best thing to being dry, and keeping a soaking wet layer of wool next to the skin does virtually nothing for you underwater.

I know all about wool and synthetic fibers. They keep you warm by, unlike cotton, not absorbing a lot of water and keeping a fair amount of air against the skin. Air is a good insulator. However, when you're *under water*, there are no magic air spaces in the wool. Just like when you're walking knee deep in a river it doesn't matter if you have wool socks or cotton socks.. when you get out, the cotton socks will be cold as hell because there are still no air spaces, whereas the wool will shed 80-90% of the water it absorbed almost immediately.

It's a gimmick used to sell wetsuits to people who think that the trapped layer of water is what keeps them warm.

Heh. Water as an insulator.

 

[JimC]

But neoprene itself is a poor insulator at depth, correct?

I do happen to know from long, personal (non-scuba) experience that wool is an excellent insulator when wet, maybe one of the best. FWIW, I have no idea how this would apply to wetsuits.

Neoprene is not the insulator in a wetsuit, the air/nitrogen/whatever bubbles gets blow into the neoprene are the insulator.

Wool is a fine insulator on land It is a good traper of air. Wool fibers trap air better than say silk would. After being dunked in water and wrung out wool retains most of its air trapping properties, unlike say cotton. This is why its a good insulator when damp. Completely submerged wool traps virtualy no air, and thus has virtualy no insulation properties.

Infact almost every insulator you run into uses traped air or an innert gas to provide its insulation. Water is a very bad insulator and has a high specific heat so it takes a lot of energy to get warm.

Get a wetsuit that fits well, with good seals to minimize water convection. Get a thicker wetsuit with more traped air to minimize conduction.

 

[pgdive]

I was also very skeptical about the Pinnacle suits before we started selling them. I can remember seeing the suits at DEMA two years ago and not giving them a second thought.

The company sent us a few suits to try and we gave them out to some of our divemasters to take for a few test dives here in New England and they reported that they were the warmest, most comfortable suits that they had ever used.

FYI I found this website that appears to address some of the questions brought up about the insulating properties of the merino wool.


http://www.simplyscuba.com/ShowPage.aspx?ShowPage=PinnacleMerino

 

[StSomewhere]

Hey, I'm edjumacatable as the next guy, I'm just trying to understand.

After all, most of the higher-end wetsuits advertise titanium lining as a way to "reflect" heat. Makes about as much sense as using a trapped, warmer layer of water for insulating properties to me. :06:

 

[jonnythan]

FYI I found this website that appears to address some of the questions brought up about the insulating properties of the merino wool.


http://www.simplyscuba.com/ShowPage.aspx?ShowPage=PinnacleMerino

That's called an "advertisemnt," also known as "lies"

 

[JimC]

Hey, I'm edjumacatable as the next guy, I'm just trying to understand.

After all, most of the higher-end wetsuits advertise titanium lining as a way to "reflect" heat. Makes about as much sense as using a trapped, warmer layer of water for insulating properties to me. :06:

While in theory the reflective linning should return some of the radiation heat loss back to you, realisticaly the amount of energy you loose via radiation is orders of magnitude lower than via conduction and convection. Yet another high priced gimik.

In short:

Thicker suit = more traped air bubbles = less conduction.
Better fit = less water flow though the suit = less convection.

http://www.simplyscuba.com/ShowPage...=PinnacleMerino

(Edit, I'd rather destroy this completely than just laugh at it)

"There is an old school physics experiment where an ice cube is wired to the bottom of a test tube filled with water."

Ice is a great thermal insulator. Water is not ice.


"Its not your wetsuit that keeps you warm, its the thin layer of water trapped between your skin"

If this is try, then why are you buying a wetsuit. They just stated that it dousn't keep you warm.


"The water that seeps into your suit during the first few minutes of your dive absorbs the heat energy emanating from your skin as you swin."

Thats right atleast. Not that you WANT the water adsorbing the heat from your body. Thats kinda the whole thing your trying to stop from happeneing.


"Water also has a large thermal sink, which means a large amount of thermal energy can be absorbed by a relatively small mass of fluid."

Right, so it will absorbe a large amount of YOUR heat. This is good how? Its not like you get to keep it. Its going to leak out and though even the best fitting wet suits.

 

[jonnythan]

Hey, I'm edjumacatable as the next guy, I'm just trying to understand.

After all, most of the higher-end wetsuits advertise titanium lining as a way to "reflect" heat. Makes about as much sense as using a trapped, warmer layer of water for insulating properties to me. :06:

More lies and marketing gimmicks. Your body emits no significant heat as radiation when you're diving. This has been debunked over and over.

 

[jonnythan]

This is a choice excerpt:

"Water, the physics teacher would explain pointedly while stalking between desks and glaring at each student in turn, is an excellent thermal insulator"

Or it could be that cold water is more dense and stays at the bottom with the ice cube, whereas warm water is less dense and stays at the top. Ever hear of a thermocline?


Here's a good thought experiment. Pretend you're sitting at your desk and someone places an electric stove heating element two feet away from you.

Now pretend your hand is in a sink half full of water and someone places the electric stove heating element two feet away from your hand.

In which situation will you cry first?

Still wanna say water is a good insulator?

 

[jonnythan]

Ok, one more excerpt, from the *next paragraph*:

"Its not your wetsuit that keeps you warm, its the thin layer of water trapped between your skin and the wetsuit that you can thank for keeping you toasty and snug 90 feet deep off Vancouver Island."

In other words, your 1mm full body suit is going to be as warm as your 7mm full body suit, since it's the LAYER OF WATER that keeps you warm!

Give me a break. The only thing that layer of water does is stop pulling MORE heat away once it's close to your body's surface temperature. The air in the wetsuit is the insulation. If you doubt that, go put on your tropical wetsuit, pour hot water in it, and go ice diving. Tell me how you fee 45 seconds into the dive.

This page is one big lie. Don't believe a word of it.

 

[tangfish]

ok, I think you guys convinced me that this whole wool thing is hogwash. But is the wool necessarily worse than having no liner at all? I'm mildly allergic to neoprene so I'm looking for a suit with some kind of barrier between my skin and the neoprene, so wouldn't one of these suits provide just as much warmth as a regular (same thickness) neoprene suit but keep my skin away from the neoprene?