Wing vs. Jacket

[mictrik]

I am actually a dealer for more than just Oceanic and Mares. We also are dealers for ScubaPro, Sherwood and many others. We have a pool at our shop and the majority of our customers are in BP&W's and mainly because once they try them out in the pool or at a Demo Event, they fall in love with them. If they are not in a BP&W then the next popular choice in order is

1. DiveRite Transpac
2. DiveRite Travelpac
3. ScubaPro Knighthawk/Ladyhawk
4. ScubaPro Litehawk

I haven't sold a Jacket Style BC "in our store" in 4 years and the last one ordered for stock in our store was 6 years ago with the last one taking 2 years to sell (I hope I didn't loose you there). The only jacket style BC's that we sell are "On-Line". With us letting divers "try before they buy", I don't feel that my comments are "biased" at all, it is based on facts of what goes on in our shop.

Wayne,

I believe that a great many people are persuaded consciously and unconsciously by salesman and other divers to choose backplate/wings as a BCD. I have seen so many sales people shy away from the original Scubapro stab jacket design when discussing BC selection with a customer. This is a shame because the virtues of the true stabilizing jacket far outweigh any negatives. For myself this is the way to go most of the time; my other choices being a BP/W or no BC depending on the circumstances. The Stabilizer jacket (like the classic sport) allows for perfect stability in every position including upside down. On the surface (if one unfortunately needs to be) the Stab jacket is unparalleled. I view the BC as more of a safety device than anything else. My BC always seems fully deflated when I dive because I weight myself to be slightly negative on descent and neutral to slightly buoyant during ascent. I am far less bulky with my old stab jacket deflated than anyone in a BP/W that I have seen. This allows me to move with less air consumption and to fit through openings easier IMO. Everyone should have their opinion and I respect that however I am certain that the move towards BP/W has been pushed my many in the diving community.

I believe I stopped into your shop when I was working in Princeton back in 2008. would not know who is who or anything but I remember a very nice shop.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

See how people TEST things that are important for a marketing/ business planning perspective? There is no drive to test things like that in the scuba industry.

Perhaps the reason there is no drive in the scuba industry to test for Cd is the fact that each style BC (Vest, BI & BP/W) has similar CD's for both good and bad designs from a streamlining point of view; even the BC's that are "best" are not very streamlined at all and probably only marginally better than the worst streamlined BC's. Truth in advertising; right? Let's look closely at the words of a couple prominent manufacturers;

Our systems are so streamlined they practically dive themselves.

Most divers considering a BP&W are doing so for more streamlining, easier venting etc.

Tobin

They did not say "our BP/W's are the most streamlined", or even that "BP/W's are more streamlined than BI's and Vests." Perhaps they "used" the words streamlined and streamlining from "a marketing/ business planning perspective?" But just like us they don't really know who sells the most streamlined of the three popular modern BC styles, because nobody has ever made any measurements. :shocked2:

I'm not necessarily saying that any BC is designed badly, but they are definitely designed differently with regards to the order of the priorities. I guided a night shore dive years ago for a little old couple who had made nearly all of their 80-100 dives in Cozumel. 87 minute dive that never got deeper that 22' (rare critters at 40'!); that couple made molasses look like mercury, and there are many very nice BC's designed just for divers like them.

What I'm saying is I challenge anyone to some racing. I am nearly destitute due to trying too long in this recession to keep scuba my main income, so you will have to come to Maui, but I have scooters and if you are ~ 6', 185 lbs with size 11.5 feet we can mix and match from my SeaQuest Vest quiver, your BP/W quiver, swap my Gara2000's for your Jet's and see just who and what is fastest.

Until there are some tests, I think the fully exposed BP/W bladder obviously more than makes up in drag for any difference in clutter on the body compared to a well designed Vest BC. If nobody had tried to "sell" BP/W's by using words like "streamlining" I would probably not be in this thread.

 

[clifftondiver]

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Any one with any sense wouldn't dive a scooter like that for anything besides a shallow reef dive. Its a great way for the prop to eat gear/line. I can tell you've never been on a scooter dependent dive before.

Hijack Alert!

Yes, we can all tell so much from one picture on the internet.

I worked 3 years as a mostly full time beach resort instructor/guide. The feature scooter dive in the area is a small wreck over 400 yards off shore in 70-80 foot deep water. If your profile stats are correct, I have guided nearly as many vacation divers "just" on that scooter dependent dive as you have total logged dives.

Then there are all the scooter training dives; AOW Deep, Wreck and Photo dives, Deep Specialty dives and DPV Specialty dives (PADI DPV Instructor ).

I have also made at least as many solo scooter dependent dives, including a deeper, farther off shore wreck where I went to the even deeper reef beyond and non-wreck dives over a half mile off shore and 130 feet deep, at the turn.

Almost all of those scooter "hours" were in the "Superman" position. My current LDS has the "saddles" designed by the manufacturer, but I've never used one because I think they "look" very un-streamlined.

My slate pencil might get eaten if I am really careless but even if I'm only half awake what gear/line is going to get in "my" prop? I'm diving off Maui.

End Hijack!

 

[jepuskar]

Hijack Alert!

Yes, we can all tell so much from one picture on the internet.

I worked 3 years as a mostly full time beach resort instructor/guide. The feature scooter dive in the area is a small wreck over 400 yards off shore in 70-80 foot deep water. If your profile stats are correct, I have guided nearly as many vacation divers "just" on that scooter dependent dive as you have total logged dives.

Then there are all the scooter training dives; AOW Deep, Wreck and Photo dives, Deep Specialty dives and DPV Specialty dives (PADI DPV Instructor ).

I have also made at least as many solo scooter dependent dives, including a deeper, farther off shore wreck where I went to the even deeper reef beyond and non-wreck dives over a half mile off shore and 130 feet deep, at the turn.

Almost all of those scooter "hours" were in the "Superman" position. My current LDS has the "saddles" designed by the manufacturer, but I've never used one because I think they "look" very un-streamlined.

My slate pencil might get eaten if I am really careless but even if I'm only half awake what gear/line is going to get in "my" prop? I'm diving off Maui.

End Hijack!

Ohh boy, someone has every PADI chevron sewed on to their best jacket.

 

[Lobzilla]

+1

Can we just get along and focus on diving for fun and for improvement of skills that have nothing to do with gear choices.

If it helps, Mr. Poetry in Motion, Steve Bogaerts wears neither one of the choices presented here. (Videos )

Wanna make a bet how he would look in a jacket, bp/w, trashbag, or even with a toilet seat hung around his neck?

BTW: He refers to the moves in his razor demo as 'basic scuba skills'. I assume that all the 'chest pounders' have those nailed down. Or?

 

[Hepcat62]

I am actually a dealer for more than just Oceanic and Mares. We also are dealers for ScubaPro, Sherwood and many others. We have a pool at our shop and the majority of our customers are in BP&W's and mainly because once they try them out in the pool or at a Demo Event, they fall in love with them. If they are not in a BP&W then the next popular choice in order is

1. DiveRite Transpac
2. DiveRite Travelpac
3. ScubaPro Knighthawk/Ladyhawk
4. ScubaPro Litehawk

This lines up with my experience as well. At the shop I DM for in NorCal, we don't carry DiveRite, but the Knighhawk/Ladyhawk are generally the go-to BCs for most people interested in local diving. We're starting to see a minor uptick in interest around the BP/W setups, especially around the new Halcyon Infinity w/ the Cinch.

I used to dive a Knighthawk (and I still have it, for teaching reasons). As back-inflate BCs go, it's a totally fine choice, and I have no problem with recommending it to people who aren't interested in a BP/W. I currently dive an Infinity, with the shoulder pads and integrated weight pockets removed. We don't yet have BP/W rental units (although the Cinch makes that more practical), but every time I've let somebody try mine in the pool we've sold one.

For people who aren't initially looking specifically for a BP/W, the primary concern is generally comfort. A quick trial run in the pool with any sort of wetsuit whatsoever is generally enough to convince them that comfort generally INCREASES rather than decreases, primarily due to the effectively custom fit and the increased tank stability. In particular, women who have been willing to try them have often found the lack of a necessary chest strap to be a significant improvement.

The secondary concern is generally the lack of a Air2 style system. We run our classes on rental gear (unless students have bought their own), which is all Scubapro Classics with Air2s. This is usually where I show them my bungeed backup, and they start to think, "Hey, that seems like a pretty smart idea." This is especially true if they've completed the air-share exercise using the god-awful mouthpiece on the Air2.

Anytime somebody asks me, the Halcyon Infinity is my current de-facto recommendation for a newly certified diver looking to purchase a BC for use in NorCal waters at our shop. The only other brand of BP/W we're a dealer for is Hollis, and I can't really recommend them over the Halcyon design due to their harnesses.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Ohh boy, someone has every PADI chevron sewed on to their best jacket.

Chest Pounding Alert!

One day between X-mass and 1/1, when Paris was vip cabana'd on one side of the pool and Nicole on the other, my boss said "if you get the DPV Instructor merit badge you get to teach the Kennedy second cousin both Deep and Scooter." The cash tips were nearly $200 and the dives were spectacular.

​

If Underwater Digital Photography is the only new Specialty since I bought my Specialty Instructor Manual, I am only allowed to teach 11 out of 22 non distinctive PADI Specialties.

3 Specialties are "given" to every PADI Instructor; Peak Performance Buoyancy, Project Aware and Aware Fish ID. I have only taught PPB dives in AOW and no Aware dives.

I took the MSDT Prep course from my CD after my IDC and IE, so I got PADI instruction in teaching Deep, Naturalist, Navigation, Night, Nitrox and Wreck (merit badges come after submitting 6 Specialty Instructor applications/fees). I then got underwater photography teaching instruction from Stephen Frink Photography before sending the application/fee to become PADI Underwater Photography Specialty Instructor.

DPV is the only one I have applied/paid for that I have not had teaching instruction for, but it is not hard for an experienced instructor with that previous Specialty teaching instruction and hundreds of scooter dives to teach well beyond the PADI DPV Standards, Manual and DVD.

End Chest Pounding Alert!

 

[ijdod]

I recently switched from the SeaQuest ProQD I started out with, to a Halcyon Infinity set. I've done about 30 dives with the bp/w so far, and my only regret is not doing so earlier. I love it in the water. Getting mt trim sorted out is so much easier. Did notice that the ProQD was easier to vent completely, and that the inflator is, well, better designed. The way the mouthpiece of the power inflators commonly used in wings is angled, I'm not sure how you're supposed to stick in your mouth while wearing it.

I'm still undecided on the actual benefits of the Cinch system. So far I've not found an easy way to release the straps, which was my main interest. Tightening the system works fine. Not sure if it's worth the effort compared to a regular system.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

\Did notice that the ProQD was easier to vent completely, and that the inflator is, well, better designed.

Since it seems slightly to significantly overweighted is the way the vast majority of the world dives, this would seem to be high on the priority list for an operator buying rental gear.

For a personal purchase perspective, some divers chose to move their priorities either up or down the list, IMHO.