why do padi shops not recognize ssi first aid training ??

[rick00001967]

update.....just completed my navigation dives on saturday. beautiful day to be in the water. 70 degree water at the surface, but dropped into "yikes" once below the thermocline. lol
did a buddy dive where we took turns using the compass and tracking the time. did a reciprocal course, two triangles, and two square runs. for my runs i was up off the bottom in about 6 foot vis and ended bang on the spot where we started. whoo hoo !! found it to be an interesting experience. swimming with no visual references and following only the heading on the compass is something i have never done. kinda like flyin a plane at night. lol aced the test (pretty simple). so all is good.
gotta decide now which specialty to try next. thinking underwater photography. i could use some serious help learning how to use the manual functions on my camera.
then it is strees and rescue time after retaking the cpr/first aid/aed course.

 

[eponym]

Nice report, thanks.

I was in similar water today, 70F surface, thermo at 17F, 50 degrees at 50 feet, with a private OWD student (SSI). On our third dive I set him some compass nav challenges since everything else was coming so easy to him. Oh, yeah, he's also a licensed pilot with instrument-only rating.

And you're right, swimming out of sight of the bottom with only the compass for reference can be a mind-bending exercise the first few times.

Fun times.

I hope your Stress & Rescue course is exiciting and dramatic. Have fun, don't forget that when you're in charge of a scenario, DELEGATION is a key skill.

 

[rick00001967]

don't forget that when you're in charge of a scenario, DELEGATION is a key skill.

that should be easy for me. i hate doing anything for myself. lol j/k

 

[k ellis]

One thing to take in to consideration is that shops are businesses like any other buisness out there. They have to contend with liability. If you were to go out and attempt to rescue a diver and were unsuccessful then a good lawyer would attempt to win damages for his clients family by saying you were poorly trained if trained at all. They would then say "XYZ Divers" taught your rescue course and took your word for it that "Smileys diveshop" taught you CPR. Now Smileys may have been out of buisness for over a year so there would be nothing to win there (Potentially). So the dive shop would be left holding the bag with nothing more then a piece of paper that could have been made up on a computer saying your certified.

Look at it like this here. I work in law enforcement and I work in a hospital too. Now the law enforcement required that I carry American Red Cross certification and no other. Then the hospital wanted only American heart association when I already had American Red Cross. They said no exceptions. Then I go for my EFR in which I had both and they said that they were no up to the standard PADI was looking for so again I carried EFR for that course.

Now I cant go in to details but when the day came I needed to perform CPR it became a blessing that when a good lawyer attempted to say I was poorly educated in CPR it was quickly dispelled in that 3 certs meaning 3 different instructors were satisified that I was capable of doing CPR so there was little question left as to if I was a capable person to perform it.

When you prepare for bad things to happen its wise. When bad things happen the more you got to prove you were in the right the better your going to be in the long run!

 

[boulderjohn]

One thing to take in to consideration is that shops are businesses like any other buisness out there. They have to contend with liability. If you were to go out and attempt to rescue a diver and were unsuccessful then a good lawyer would attempt to win damages for his clients family by saying you were poorly trained if trained at all. They would then say "XYZ Divers" taught your rescue course and took your word for it that "Smileys diveshop" taught you CPR.

I just want to make an observation about this. Not long ago we finished the Alabama murder trial of Gabe Watson, which followed his plea bargain for manslaughter in Australia. The manslaughter plea in Australia was based on an unusual local law that essentially requires people participating in a dangerous activity to provide effective assistance in an emergency. He was essentially guilty--as clearly articulated by the judge--of doing a lousy job rescuing his wife. The murder trial in Alabama was dismissed without the defense presenting a case because the judge determined that the only thing the prosecution had proven was that Watson had done a lousy job rescuing his wife. If it had come to it, the defense would have presented very strong and compelling testimony showing that Watson had very poor dive skills and was in no way able to perform that rescue. He simply was not equipped for it.

Now here's the interesting part. Watson was certified as a Rescue Diver by NASDS, which is now SSI. His instructor (who was also his wife's instructor) testified that he had certified Watson in about half the customary amount of time. I do not know how much detail was given, but I don't see how he could have completed the standards in the time he was in class. It strongly suggests incompetent instruction.

If there ever was a case in which an instructor could be sued for poor results, you would think this would be it, especially given the zeal with which the wife's family pursued the hopeless murder case. Yet I have never heard any indication that such a suit was even attempted.

I have never in fact heard of any case in which an instructor was sued because a student didn't perform well after certification. Can anyone provide a real example of a real case?

 

[k ellis]

I just want to make an observation about this. Not long ago we finished the Alabama murder trial of Gabe Watson, which followed his plea bargain for manslaughter in Australia. The manslaughter plea in Australia was based on an unusual local law that essentially requires people participating in a dangerous activity to provide effective assistance in an emergency. He was essentially guilty--as clearly articulated by the judge--of doing a lousy job rescuing his wife. The murder trial in Alabama was dismissed without the defense presenting a case because the judge determined that the only thing the prosecution had proven was that Watson had done a lousy job rescuing his wife. If it had come to it, the defense would have presented very strong and compelling testimony showing that Watson had very poor dive skills and was in no way able to perform that rescue. He simply was not equipped for it.

Now here's the interesting part. Watson was certified as a Rescue Diver by NASDS, which is now SSI. His instructor (who was also his wife's instructor) testified that he had certified Watson in about half the customary amount of time. I do not know how much detail was given, but I don't see how he could have completed the standards in the time he was in class. It strongly suggests incompetent instruction.

If there ever was a case in which an instructor could be sued for poor results, you would think this would be it, especially given the zeal with which the wife's family pursued the hopeless murder case. Yet I have never heard any indication that such a suit was even attempted.

I have never in fact heard of any case in which an instructor was sued because a student didn't perform well after certification. Can anyone provide a real example of a real case?

I can not but the basis for my statement honestly (though I should have been more clear on this so its my bad) was that in America we see things happen every day we simply shake our heads at. The incident at Mcdonalds where a woman spilled her coffee on her self and won a ton of money for doing so. (Of course the outcome was coffee was way too hot and did not need to be so hot) but the fact of my example here is up until that point no one had ever sued someone for spilling coffee on their own self so no one anticipated it would really happen.

Can they go back and sue the instructor for poor training? Sure they can. Has it ever happened? I am not sure as I dont think I have heard of it myself. Would they have a chance in winning? In America the way we run things its a very real possibility.

 

[boulderjohn]

I can not but the basis for my statement honestly (though I should have been more clear on this so its my bad) was that in America we see things happen every day we simply shake our heads at. The incident at Mcdonalds where a woman spilled her coffee on her self and won a ton of money for doing so. (Of course the outcome was coffee was way too hot and did not need to be so hot) but the fact of my example here is up until that point no one had ever sued someone for spilling coffee on their own self so no one anticipated it would really happen.

Can they go back and sue the instructor for poor training? Sure they can. Has it ever happened? I am not sure as I dont think I have heard of it myself. Would they have a chance in winning? In America the way we run things its a very real possibility.

As has been pointed out frequently, the MacDonald's analogy is not a good one. The suit was not successful because she spilled it on her lap. It was successful because MacDonalds had been warned that its coffee was being stored at a dangerously high temperature which could be foreseen to cause severe damage (as it did--third degree scalding requiring hospitalization) in the case of an accident. An accident in which this dangerously hot coffee is spilled on the lap is very possible, even likely, when one is serving it at a drive through window. Thus, MacDonalds should have known that in serving dangerously hot coffee at a drive through window it was creating a hazardous situation that could result in severe injury. If the coffee had been at a normal serving temperature--as they had been warned to do--there would have been no case. That is very different situation from suing an instructor because one of the students did not perform up to snuff.

 

[k ellis]

As has been pointed out frequently, the MacDonald's analogy is not a good one. The suit was not successful because she spilled it on her lap. It was successful because MacDonalds had been warned that its coffee was being stored at a dangerously high temperature which could be foreseen to cause severe damage (as it did--third degree scalding requiring hospitalization) in the case of an accident. An accident in which this dangerously hot coffee is spilled on the lap is very possible, even likely, when one is serving it at a drive through window. Thus, MacDonalds should have known that in serving dangerously hot coffee at a drive through window it was creating a hazardous situation that could result in severe injury. If the coffee had been at a normal serving temperature--as they had been warned to do--there would have been no case. That is very different situation from suing an instructor because one of the students did not perform up to snuff.

Well again it was not an analogy to say that Mcdonalds was right or wrong. It was a statement to say most people would have never seen it possible. Most people simply lived by the thought of coffee is meant to be hot so she got what she asked for in getting scalded. Now my point was not to make mcdonalds out to be right or wrong it was simply people dont forsee that things can become a legal issue very quickly and often times over doing nothing more then every day life.

Sorry you misunderstood my point I was trying to make on that topic.

 

[rick00001967]

One thing to take in to consideration is that shops are businesses like any other buisness out there. They have to contend with liability. If you were to go out and attempt to rescue a diver and were unsuccessful then a good lawyer would attempt to win damages for his clients family by saying you were poorly trained if trained at all. They would then say "XYZ Divers" taught your rescue course and took your word for it that "Smileys diveshop" taught you CPR. Now Smileys may have been out of buisness for over a year so there would be nothing to win there (Potentially). So the dive shop would be left holding the bag with nothing more then a piece of paper that could have been made up on a computer saying your certified.

Look at it like this here. I work in law enforcement and I work in a hospital too. Now the law enforcement required that I carry American Red Cross certification and no other. Then the hospital wanted only American heart association when I already had American Red Cross. They said no exceptions. Then I go for my EFR in which I had both and they said that they were no up to the standard PADI was looking for so again I carried EFR for that course.

Now I cant go in to details but when the day came I needed to perform CPR it became a blessing that when a good lawyer attempted to say I was poorly educated in CPR it was quickly dispelled in that 3 certs meaning 3 different instructors were satisified that I was capable of doing CPR so there was little question left as to if I was a capable person to perform it.

When you prepare for bad things to happen its wise. When bad things happen the more you got to prove you were in the right the better your going to be in the long run!

first....thx to you and boulder both for your comments

i appreciate and understand the point you are making. only difference i would point out in my case is that i did not recieve training at "smileys dive shop" (lol.....can i use that name if i ever open my own shop?) it was done by a fully acredited instructor in canada that was trained and has practiced extensively at an SSI dive shop that is owned and operated by an SSI platinum pro 5000 dive instructor. i also carried the paperwork to prove it. if it was acceptable in all of canada, i would hope it would be recognised as legit elsewhere, even if the padi shop i was contacting for rescue training did not agree 100% with all canadian standards.

perhaps a better question to ask (and perhaps it has been asked before, so sorry if it has) is, why are there not universal standards when it comes to cpr/first aid procedures and training. especially if it is specifically scuba related training. at least a common north american standard should be something that could easily be agreed upon ?? no ?? maybe not. but that would solve a lot of the issues brought up. maybe SSI and PADI should get in a room together and come to an understanding for common efr training for the good of all divers. or is that just too unrealistic ?? i think it would be a benefit to both agencies and their respective trainees.

 

[boulderjohn]

, why are there not universal standards when it comes to cpr/first aid procedures and training.

There is: Ilcor - Home.