Why a New Card...Again?

[talonraid]

So, I didn't see the particular certification agency listed that I'm asking the question about, but I'm sure someone knows and this seems the most appropriate area.

Why do agencies require a new card for every freakin' course? I guess I can understand a new card for Dive Master (or equivalent) and instructor. If I took a course at my old shop (different agency), they just kept a record of my having completed a course in a student folder. For example, the equipment repair course, night dive specialty, etc. If I ever needed proof, it was there. If I wanted a new card with the specialty listed, all I had to do was ask for it (and of course pay a card fee), but it was not required by their agency. However, I recently moved and had to find a new LDS. The choices aren't great in my new location. Sort of a matter of picking the "best" from a herd of exceedingly average places.

Anyway, I want to take the Rescue Diver course. In addition to the books and tuition, there is a $30 fee for new card and picture.....I don't need to prove to anyone that I'm Rescue Diver certified. If I decide to take any specialty it seems I pay $30 for a new card and picture. I mentioned to the store manager (politely) that I don't want a new card, just the course. I asked if I could skip the $30 and the new card. Then answer was "no, the agency requires it".

This is ridiculous. How about a nice sticker for the back of my current card? Or even simpler, how about it just goes on a transcript accessible on the agency's website in case I ever need to show someone that I took a rescue course or some other specialty?

This really seems like another way to just get money from people. My government issued driver's license only cost me like $10-15 dollars, and I don't need a new one if I take a defensive driving course. I don't need a new military ID card every time I complete a specialty course in some area. It's in my records that I can access from a website.

Thanks.

 

[GUnderTheC]

Consider it a processing fee to have your record stored in their database (depending on which Agency this can be accessible via the web). It makes sense to me that this is a way to get their small "cut" of your course (in addition to what they get for course materials). Course fees are just that, as far as I know, they go to the LDS and instructor, the certifying agency doesn't see any of that, which is why there is a processing fee. If you really want to opt out of this fee, just don't pay it. Of course this means you haven't officially taken the course. Keep in mind Rescue is a pre-req for DiveMaster....which you agree is worthwhile getting a new card for

WRT to your driver's license and military ID card, that's your tax dollars at work... Hmmm if it costs more than 19 million for NASA to build a toilet... I wonder how much their ID cards cost them???

 

[Don Wray]

This really seems like another way to just get money from people. My government issued driver's license only cost me like $10-15 dollars, and I don't need a new one if I take a defensive driving course.

True, but that license is renewable and you have to pay for the renewal. In some states, you pay the same money and all you get is a sticker. If you want to upgrade to motorcycle, vehicles over a certain weight, etc., you have to pay another fee and get another license.

I don't need a new military ID card every time I complete a specialty course in some area. It's in my records that I can access from a website.

True, but then again, the folks entering that data work for the government and will be paid through the military budget, which comes from tax dollars. Scuba agencies, for the most part, are for profit which means they get their operating funds from us, the divers.

As was said before, most people believe that the agencies are just making money off the diver's for the courses they take. They make part of the fees for books and educational materials, part of the fees for the card. They make make nothing off the actual classes. The do receive annual fees from the professional ratings.

A DM or Instructor has already taken all the classes required leading up to a professional rating which included buying the educational materials and paying the cert fees for those classes. When the person decides they want to be an instructor, they must attend an IDC to be allowed to take an Instructor Examination. The cost of the IDC varies but for PADI, the application fee is $100 and the Examination fee is a non refundable $460. Any part of the IE that requires retest is $170 per section. The annual fee tears a hundred dollar bill up pretty good and then there's insurance annually close to $600. Now add the cost of equipment and maintainence plus insurance on that.

The independent instructor determines the cost of the course and purchases the cert card (PIC for PADI). Some instructors include that cost into the upfront tuition fees, others do not. They charge you $X for the card and either you or they send in the form. The affiliated instructor allows the shop to set the cost.

I know that doesn't stop your frustration with the current set up but maybe explained it some.
Best,
Don

 

[talonraid]

Consider it a processing fee to have your record stored in their database (depending on which Agency this can be accessible via the web).

This one is tough for me to agree with. It's a series of 0s and 1s that any good business would maintain anyway for their own records and to keep themselves up to speed concerning trends and various data they would need to project how their business is doing and where they need to make changes.

It makes sense to me that this is a way to get their small "cut" of your course (in addition to what they get for course materials).

This I believe is right on the money...so to speak.

Course fees are just that, as far as I know, they go to the LDS and instructor, the certifying agency doesn't see any of that, which is why there is a processing fee.

Good point. Don Wray hit on this one as well.

If you really want to opt out of this fee, just don't pay it. Of course this means you haven't officially taken the course.

I actually asked the LDS if I could just not pay the fee and not get the new card. After all, they have a paper "student folder" they keep on everyone who takes a course. The manager looked at me in confusion for a moment and then said..."you have to pay the $30." I wonder if this was the first time he had ever been asked this.

WRT to your driver's license and military ID card, that's your tax dollars at work... Hmmm if it costs more than 19 million for NASA to build a toilet... I wonder how much their ID cards cost them???

I almost deleted the passage about military and driver's license because I imagined someone would point this out. I've been told (unonfirmed) that my new high-tech military ID costs around $200 per copy. Too bad it doesn't really work as advertised and it has caused way more trouble than the old laminated paper style.

Don Wray: I also see your point about the agencies making "part" of the fees for the books and educational materials. Perhaps my old LDS was charging me a similar card fee, I just wasn't getting the card. However, their prices were a bit less that the average prices of the dive shops in my new city.

So, I guess I feel a little bit better about paying the $30, but not much. I almost wish they would just include the cost in the tuition instead of breaking it out as a separate fee. Ignorance is bliss. I still think a sticker on the back of a card for a specialty course (like Don Wray mentioned for some state driver's license) makes more sense than a whole new card. That way the agency could pocket a little more $ in the long run and perhpas use that extra bank to make the overall program better in some fashion, or lower the costs to the consumer. Plus how much would we save by not cutting down so many plastic trees from the Silicone Forest? That alone would be worth the savings.

 

[RJP]

So, I guess I feel a little bit better about paying the $30, but not much. I almost wish they would just include the cost in the tuition instead of breaking it out as a separate fee. Ignorance is bliss.

I agree. I bought a car recently. A pretty expensive car, with leather and wood, and "premium package" options and the like. At the end of everything they point out that the floor mats were another $200.

For goodness sakes, raise the price of the car $200 and tell me the floor mats are FREE!

 

[Walter]

OK, so you want to learn, but have no desire to collect cards and no desire to pay for cards your don't need. I can understand that concept and support your desire to find such classes.

You have been told lies. An instructor must pay a fee to certify a diver. After the class is complete, he is not required to certify you. If you don't want to be certified, he doesn't have to certify you. If he doesn't certify you, there's no need to charge you the fee to pay for the card. Some certifications give you access (some shouldn't), so if you take one of those classes, you should get the card. Unless you want to later become a DM, there's no need for the Rescue card. The class gives you all you need. The Nitrox card actually allows you access to something your OW card does not. I don't understand why instructors in your area are lying to you about this. If you were in my area and I were still teaching, I'd be happy to help you with classes that didn't result in issuing a c-card, but I would not later (not more than 6 months later) issue a card at your request unless you took the class over. You also need to understand that instructors do retire from teaching and after their instructor card expires, they can no longer issue certifications.

 

[The Chairman]

Gee Walter... why call someone a liar? That may very well be the only way the instructor wants to run his classes. FWIW, most cards cost the instructor about $12-15, so the rest is additional profit for him. Why do we see people making money at instruction as a BAD thing? Surely, they want to eat and buy a home and such. In my mind, we have our values mixed up. We spend far less than on any piece of gear or dve vacation. We really need to re-value how we are charging for our classes.

 

[RJP]

OK, so you want to learn, but have no desire to collect cards and no desire to pay for cards your don't need. I can understand that concept and support your desire to find such classes.

You have been told lies. An instructor must pay a fee to certify a diver. After the class is complete, he is not required to certify you. If you don't want to be certified, he doesn't have to certify you. If he doesn't certify you, there's no need to charge you the fee to pay for the card.

I wonder what the liability issues would be around "teaching" someone but not "certifying" them?

"Please explain to the jury - and to the wife of the deceased - why you told Mr Jones he was qualified to do XXXXXX diving, but you did not actually certify Mr Jones as a XXXXXX diver."



I'd have to imagine there'd be problems with enforcing your professional liability insurance coverage as well.

 

[RJP]

Anyway, I want to take the Rescue Diver course. In addition to the books and tuition, there is a $30 fee for new card and picture.....I don't need to prove to anyone that I'm Rescue Diver certified. If I decide to take any specialty it seems I pay $30 for a new card and picture. I mentioned to the store manager (politely) that I don't want a new card, just the course. I asked if I could skip the $30 and the new card. Then answer was "no, the agency requires it".

Simple fix to your problem: Fail the test.

 

[TSandM]

I agree with the OP's gripe, but it wasn't so much that I objected to paying the fee (although it would be more palatable if it were simply bundled into the class cost), but that it annoys me to have separate CARDS for everything. One card with a bunch of stickers on it would be more environmentally friendly, and more "me" friendly, because then I'd only have to keep track of one to pack for trips. (Of course, if one takes classes from more than one agency, that doesn't work.)