who is the instructor -- referral certification

[birdwrasse]

I feel proud to teach the students I do even if they do their open water certification dives, elsewhere. before they came to our shop, they new nothing about scuba diving... doing open water cert dives in the PNW is a challenge, to say the least.

at open water, we follow a list of required skills that they must demonstrate. there is no more education, save for the dive briefing or planning... I've never had anyone come from elsewhere to do their diving here. if they are ready for open water, what do they learn from the instructor receiving the referral? I would say that 50% of the referrals I send out never return. upon containing those students, they tell me they received a cert card from the referral location.

I think about the impact I make when teaching, and think about those doing referral certifications. I fall back to the industry statistic that 80%, more or less, never dive after their cert dives. some will just not become open water divers...

what does everyone think about this practice?



thanks,




--c

 

[Diver0001]

If I read this correctly, you're objecting to the fact that the referral instructor gets the credit for the cert, right?

It makes sense to me that the last instructor to have them before they're certified is in the best position to judge whether or not they're ready. Your assertion that they don't learn anything in open water is illogical to me and doesn't match with my experience. I wouldn't feel comfortable certifying a student after the pool sessions with NO experience in open water and I'm sure you wouldn't either. That very fact says to me that they *do* learn something important in the open water portion of the course.

In other words, give the other guy some credit.

R..

 

[tstormdiver]

Depends on the agency(ies). With PADI (PADI Classroom/ pool & OW), it is the Referral Instructor that does the OW dives that gets the credit. With instructors from agencies that adopt the Universal Referral (SSI, NAUI, IDEA,... & a coupe others) it is the instructor that does the Classroom & pool sessions that gets the credit. If the student does classroom & pool with the Universal referral & then uses a PADI instructor for OW dives,... It can potentially get a little dicey. From my experience, the students bring back the signed off paperwork & SSI issues the certification,... I have heard stories of students having to retake the classroom/ pool sessions, then OW dives & issued a PADI certification. I have never had it happen to any of my students & have only "heard it through the grapevine",... so it may not even be true.

 

[Hawkwood]

....
In other words, give the other guy some credit.

R..

Diver0001,

I agree with you 100%.

Whether or not my name is on the card makes no difference to me.

With regards to the the "credit", of course both instructors "get credit". The C&P instructor gets credit for teaching that half of the course. When the final certifying instructor fills out the PIC, there is a space to indicate the referring instructor - credit there too.

Regarding the OW instructor "not teaching"? Geeze, that is where the student learns "local diving" and the practices that are involved. Think about it...the C&P is generic to all. The OW is the extra stuff specific to the dive environment and equipment that gets added by the OW instructor.

The majority of our students go elsewhere for their OW. We don't spend time in the class going into great detail about our local conditions and situations. We don't spend their class time going into great detail about altitude diving, cold water situations, the anti-silting techniques needed, working with dry suits etc. That is all done when the students who choose to take their OW dives locally. Then we get to "teach" them all that stuff.

I kind of resent the implication that when I certify a student in OW, I don't teach anything.

Bill

---------- Post added March 31st, 2013 at 06:11 AM ----------

... I have heard stories of students having to retake the classroom/ pool sessions, then OW dives & issued a PADI certification. I have never had it happen to any of my students & have only "heard it through the grapevine",... so it may not even be true.

Tammy,

Participation in the Universal Referral thing is not prohibited by PADI, it is "strongly discouraged" and "not recommended". So what you hear certainly can happen.

 

[eponym]

[snip] At open water, we follow a list of required skills that they must demonstrate. There is no more education, save for the dive briefing or planning. [snip] If they are ready for open water, what do they learn from the instructor receiving the referral?

Even if (reading between the lines above) all their skills are finely honed and near-automatic before they go to open water, one hopes they develop into divers through challenges and feedback provided by the instructor in this entirely new environment, so unlike a pool. I'm not being snarky, but it's clear to me that those first four open water dives and surface intervals are packed with opportunities to create solid beginners who will want to dive.

I would say that 50% of the referrals I send out never return. Upon contacting those students, they tell me they received a cert card from the referral location.
I think about the impact I make when teaching, and think about those doing referral certifications. [snip] What does everyone think about this practice?

If the operation is PADI, they generally get a PADI card there. It's no big deal. I teach SSI courses. With outbound referral students I contact the shop or resort they've chosen (and can also help them locate and choose an appropriate one). I talk with their referral instructor before they go, so all three of us are in on the plan. Student goes with the universal referral paperwork, a PADI shop is kind enough to accept that. I generally hear back from the instructor as well as the student, love getting feedback from other instructors.

Everyone wins.

If I don't hear back from the student as soon as vacation's done, that tells me we didn't really connect. Creating enthusiasm and the sense that diving is a social activity are part of my job.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The only problem some of us run into is that the skills required for OW divers with SEI are not taught until the "pro level" by some agencies if at all. What I have done for those divers that did request referrals is to personally email or call and find a shop/instructor who is up on our standards and can do a proper checkout.

And with SEI, both instructors (if SEI) get the credit for the cert but I send in the competed paperwork. If say a NAUI instructor does the referral they get the cash for the referral but obviously not credit with SEI. If I were to get a student referred to me I don't care if I get credit for the cert. I/we are not as focused on numbers as some others are.

If the cert is done by two instructors that are effectively team teaching both should get the credit if they are from the same agency. That would be the fair thing to do IMO.

 

[Diver0001]

The only problem some of us run into is that the skills required for OW divers with SEI are not taught until the "pro level" by some agencies if at all.

Your loyalty and confidence in the SEI system are admirable but your commitment to facts leaves a lot to be desired from time to time.

Your problem, Jim, If I may be so bold, seems to be that you have had some bad experiences with PADI in the past and have come to believe that there ARE no good PADI people.

I know that being bitter can feel good but it would be nice if you could at least TRY to accept that not all PADI people are like the ones who trained you.

R..

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I do know that there are some very good PADI instructors out there. Mine was one. Though not someone I would send a loved one to. Not because of him or how he teaches. But because he cannot teach the skills I now feel are necessary for a new diver to have. Especially someone I care about. He has to make them wait to get them.

 

[scjoe]

My guess is the real reason PADI wants the credit to go to the last instructor is that PADI focuses on the numbers certified and would like to scoop up the certs that might otherwise go to another agency. The Universal Referral program is probably set up the way it is is to encourage local instructors to make referrals. Also, that referred student is going to come home from vacation and, in theory, hook back up with their local store. They are never going to see the vacation instructor again. I assume no aspect of the referral system has the students' interests in mind.

 

[oly5050user]

Depends on the agency(ies). With PADI (PADI Classroom/ pool & OW), it is the Referral Instructor that does the OW dives that gets the credit. With instructors from agencies that adopt the Universal Referral (SSI, NAUI, IDEA,... & a coupe others) it is the instructor that does the Classroom & pool sessions that gets the credit. If the student does classroom & pool with the Universal referral & then uses a PADI instructor for OW dives,... It can potentially get a little dicey. From my experience, the students bring back the signed off paperwork & SSI issues the certification,... I have heard stories of students having to retake the classroom/ pool sessions, then OW dives & issued a PADI certification. I have never had it happen to any of my students & have only "heard it through the grapevine",... so it may not even be true.

The PADI instructor can accept and sign off on the universal referral, BUT it is highly discouraged. The way PADI recommends to handle this is to do a single short pool session to evaluate the student before the ow dives. There are like 18-20 skills to be reviewed during this pool evaluation session, takes perhaps 30-45 minutes or less to get it all done. Then have the student take and pass the ow diver final exam. After successful completion of the 4 dives a PADI certification can be issued by the instructor. There is no requirement to "retake" classroom /pool sessions. The instructor who conducts the last dive is the certification instructor.That instructor is to ensure that ALL requirements have been meet. That instructor is the one who actually witnessed the student diving. How can one logically ask an instructor who DID NOT witness this person actually diving to be the certification instructor? Even if the instructor trained the student in the classroom and pool he did not witness the skills being used in a dive. I for one would not sign off a certification for a student that I trained in classroom/pool if they did the dives elsewhere and came back with a signed off universal referral and expected me to issue a certification card. Let the instructor who did the dives with them issue whatever card they want. Does not matter to me. As to getting "credit" for the certification I cannot see what the big deal is about not getting this "credit ". Its not like each certification issued with my name on it pays any of my bills. Just do what is best for your student while staying in your agencies standards.
Would I accept a universal referral form from a student of mine that did the 4 dives elsewhere/different agency and issue a certification card for someone who I did not do the dives with?
No I cannot.
I would take a universal diver that did their classroom/pool work elsewhere and then follow PADI's protocol for certification (a 1 time pool evaluation-PADI final exam-4 training dives) and issue them a PADI certification. If the student with a universal referral, or their instructor that did the classroom/pool work wants a certification from any different agency they can still issue it to them.

---------- Post added April 5th, 2013 at 09:55 AM ----------

My guess is the real reason PADI wants the credit to go to the last instructor is that PADI focuses on the numbers certified and would like to scoop up the certs that might otherwise go to another agency

.
Why would PADI want the credit? Numbers certified mean absolutely nothing.. It's not like it pays any bills.

T

he Universal Referral program is probably set up the way it is is to encourage local instructors to make referrals. Also, that referred student is going to come home from vacation and, in theory, hook back up with their local store. They are never going to see the vacation instructor again.

Not everyone is able to, or wants to , complete the 4 dives at home,in what can be cold no visibility waters. Universal ref program is set up so that if the student cannot find an instructor from their respective agency he/she has options.i

I assume no aspect of the referral system has the students' interests in mind.

Sure it has..Gives them options.