Who is right? Who is wrong?

[Hashsaz]

This question I would like to ask is not happened to me but I heard from my instructor.

to keep myself save from law case, i will not mention the name of involved person, place of incident and which diving cert. provider. Just share and wish to hear from everyone's opinion, especially dive op, dm in duty and instructors for my future reference (gonna take IDC course soon next year).

who is going to pay responsible for the cases below:
Case 1 - A student with middle age (40-50) with fat body asked for course and he claim himself is healthy to take diving course. Then, the instructor doubt and rejected for few times until he signed a paper written "I, (student's name) will pay full responsible for all liability including personal injury, death etc during the course and I agreed that the dive center (dc name) as well as the instructor, (name of instructor) accept no liabilities..bla bla bla...and he signed attach with his identification card photocopy to proved its legal.

Case 2 - a customer at age 20-30 visited to a dive center, asked for DSD and he claim himself is healthy to go for the 30min course.


Incident and case after the above cases -
Case 1 - The student died due to heart attack during the course. After reporting to his family (emergency contact), the family sued the instructor for teaching and never check clearly about someone's health problem before accepting student. besides that, the family didn't know the student went for diving course until acknowledgement of death. With earlier legal paper that signed by the victim, the instructor found not guilty but his instruction license was forfeited by diving cert provider with the reason of "we want trouble-free ".

Case 2 - the customer hit on the coral table due to a sudden strong current and panicked. He was drowned but the DM manage to rescue him and he was admitted to hospital staying for 2-3 days. The victim's family sued the dive center for the fall. The DM license was forfeited and he can't go for scuba diving anymore.


not sure there's similar case happen around you? Share your opinion about the case, just asking. Thanks.

 

[crosshairs]

I'm not a lawyer nor an instructor, so this is just my opinion:

In the first case, the student is 100% responsible....

The 2nd case is a little less obvious......although I do not blame the DM, its probably not the best practice to take students to a place that they may encounter any more danger than absolutely necessary IE: strong current and coral

 

[ozzydamo]

This question I would like to ask is not happened to me but I heard from my instructor.

to keep myself save from law case, i will not mention the name of involved person, place of incident and which diving cert. provider. Just share and wish to hear from everyone's opinion, especially dive op, dm in duty and instructors for my future reference (gonna take IDC course soon next year).

who is going to pay responsible for the cases below:
Case 1 - A student with middle age (40-50) with fat body asked for course and he claim himself is healthy to take diving course. Then, the instructor doubt and rejected for few times until he signed a paper written "I, (student's name) will pay full responsible for all liability including personal injury, death etc during the course and I agreed that the dive center (dc name) as well as the instructor, (name of instructor) accept no liabilities..bla bla bla...and he signed attach with his identification card photocopy to proved its legal.

Case 2 - a customer at age 20-30 visited to a dive center, asked for DSD and he claim himself is healthy to go for the 30min course.


Incident and case after the above cases -
Case 1 - The student died due to heart attack during the course. After reporting to his family (emergency contact), the family sued the instructor for teaching and never check clearly about someone's health problem before accepting student. besides that, the family didn't know the student went for diving course until acknowledgement of death. With earlier legal paper that signed by the victim, the instructor found not guilty but his instruction license was forfeited by diving cert provider with the reason of "we want trouble-free ".

Case 2 - the customer hit on the coral table due to a sudden strong current and panicked. He was drowned but the DM manage to rescue him and he was admitted to hospital staying for 2-3 days. The victim's family sued the dive center for the fall. The DM license was forfeited and he can't go for scuba diving anymore.


not sure there's similar case happen around you? Share your opinion about the case, just asking. Thanks.

THE DEAD GUY!
nobody can make him pay!

 

[grassgreen]

Case number 2, DMs shouldnt be taking DSDs in the open water, possible problem there.......

 

[Hashsaz]

Case number 2, DMs shouldnt be taking DSDs in the open water, possible problem there.......

It was a shore dive. Not for boat dive, and in Asia, you can do DSD in any house reef there's a lot islands with warm water. That's common, we seldom provide DSD in swimming pool etc unless the customers are panic or they take dsd in mainland.

---------- Post added November 20th, 2012 at 02:45 PM ----------

Actually what I'm concerning is "should both the instructor or dm face the punishment of license void?"

both are seems not the instructor nor dm fault as the student aware bout the risk from diving before they go for it and they agreed to responsible to all liabilities.


Case 1, the instructor got all the prove on hands, and he rejected for few times. I believed that there's only few of instructor who is truly truly truly strict with procedure will rejected him.

Case 2 - a tough and young customer, no one will expect a lil injury will cause a big problem due to panicked.

Both case seems they are both aware of the risk, but not the family. Their family who took the law action and both found no guilty, but they got their license voided by the cert provider (not the judge).

---------- Post added November 20th, 2012 at 02:46 PM ----------

THE DEAD GUY!
nobody can make him pay!

Ya right, but should the instructor lost his job?

---------- Post added November 20th, 2012 at 02:52 PM ----------

I'm not a lawyer nor an instructor, so this is just my opinion:

In the first case, the student is 100% responsible....

The 2nd case is a little less obvious......although I do not blame the DM, its probably not the best practice to take students to a place that they may encounter any more danger than absolutely necessary IE: strong current and coral

first case - but instructor bared it with jobless although judge released him.
2nd case - in lot of the places in Asia esp. Island, we do DSD directly in shore with max depth lesser than 8meters, of course before that we will teach him the basic skills as any DSD do, they start diving after the diver is ready. Current is common, not talking bout the strong 1. The reason he was panicked maybe he found himself bleeding or pain maybe? And The DM did his best respond by saving him alive. In the end he lost his job too.

 

[Doppler]

Agencies provide instructors with a couple of services... these include course standards sanctioned by insurance providors, and a set of protocols to follow which are supportable in the case of a lawsuit.

For example, when in doubt, a potential student may be asked to provide a medical sign-off... a specific form signed and stamped by a health professional (usually a family doctor or nurse practicioner).

And a second example. Within course standards and procedures, onne will find a description of the sort of conditions which are acceptable when running various courses... I teach technical programs almost exclusively (the exceptions being open water IDC and IECs), but would think long and hard about taking a student into a spot with a stong current... especially if said student was only in the charge of a DM.

In both instances, and given the information you have posted, the sanctions seem appropriate.

 

[padiscubapro]

I think the sanctions are appropriate in both cases.. In case 1 the instructor did not feel the student was in good enough health to take the class, by having the student reaffirm that he was in good health reinforces this. The instructor should have had the student fill out a medical questionaire and have it signed off by a medical practicioner.

Personally, I go the extra step when having a person fill out the medical waivers, if the student has to ask me if they should say yes or no to a question, or ask questions about physical demands, I then require them to have medicals signed off by a medical practioner.. The medical waiver for my primary agency (ANDI) has questions that bring age into the questionaire to try and help identify those that might need to reconsider diving.

In the second case, choosing a site with a current is inaproprate for a ds client. In general most agencies that allow DS, state that the dive site must be no deeper than 12m/40fsw and must be in confined water like conditions meaning reasonable viz and no current. Each agencie has specifics but you get the idea..

This question I would like to ask is not happened to me but I heard from my instructor.

to keep myself save from law case, i will not mention the name of involved person, place of incident and which diving cert. provider. Just share and wish to hear from everyone's opinion, especially dive op, dm in duty and instructors for my future reference (gonna take IDC course soon next year).

who is going to pay responsible for the cases below:
Case 1 - A student with middle age (40-50) with fat body asked for course and he claim himself is healthy to take diving course. Then, the instructor doubt and rejected for few times until he signed a paper written "I, (student's name) will pay full responsible for all liability including personal injury, death etc during the course and I agreed that the dive center (dc name) as well as the instructor, (name of instructor) accept no liabilities..bla bla bla...and he signed attach with his identification card photocopy to proved its legal.

Case 2 - a customer at age 20-30 visited to a dive center, asked for DSD and he claim himself is healthy to go for the 30min course.


Incident and case after the above cases -
Case 1 - The student died due to heart attack during the course. After reporting to his family (emergency contact), the family sued the instructor for teaching and never check clearly about someone's health problem before accepting student. besides that, the family didn't know the student went for diving course until acknowledgement of death. With earlier legal paper that signed by the victim, the instructor found not guilty but his instruction license was forfeited by diving cert provider with the reason of "we want trouble-free ".

Case 2 - the customer hit on the coral table due to a sudden strong current and panicked. He was drowned but the DM manage to rescue him and he was admitted to hospital staying for 2-3 days. The victim's family sued the dive center for the fall. The DM license was forfeited and he can't go for scuba diving anymore.


not sure there's similar case happen around you? Share your opinion about the case, just asking. Thanks.

 

[Wookie]

I'm with Joe^ above. I think that the sanctions were appropriate.

PADI (I assume that the cases were PADI as you use the term "DSD", which is a PADI term) provides very clear standards for conducting SCUBA experiences for non-certified divers/students. It doesn't matter in case number 1 if the student wrote you a blank check and told you to cover your expenses if something happened to him, you don't take a student diving if you know there is a contraindication to diving, which the dive center strongly suspected if they refused the diver a number of times due to his obesity. When you get a feeling about something, you go with it. You don't hope it will go away with some home grown liability release.

In case 2, DSDs must be performed by an instructor. DM's may only assist. It sounds like standards were broken in each case, and PADI took proper action for broken standards.

 

[Hashsaz]

Agencies provide instructors with a couple of services... these include course standards sanctioned by insurance providors, and a set of protocols to follow which are supportable in the case of a lawsuit.

Yea, he did signed and claimed himself was very healthy and guarantee with additional notes to released the dive center from paying any responsibilities.

---------- Post added November 21st, 2012 at 10:38 AM ----------

Thanks for all comments. Very helpful for
me in future when I'm asked to teach or lead a student or DSD (after i pass my idc)

 

[Doppler]

Yea, he did signed and claimed himself was very healthy and guarantee with additional notes to released the dive center from paying any responsibilities.

---------- Post added November 21st, 2012 at 10:38 AM ----------

Thanks for all comments. Very helpful for
me in future when I'm asked to teach or lead a student or DSD (after i pass my idc)

I think you have missed the point... The form he signed himself is NOT the issue, and was probably rendered worthless by the instructors actions demanding that silly written note, which for the record would be about as useful as ashtrays on a motorcycle. In the original reply to you, I mentioned a form signed by a MEDICAL PRACTITIONER... you did NOT mention that form in your original posting nor in your reply above. If it was not done, then standards were broken.


In the second case, while I am not familiar with every agency's standards, common-sense and WRSTC standards as a minimum would forbid taking a punter into an environment with strong current... any current.

As mentioned initially, the sanctions seem appropriate since in both cases, the actions of both "dive professionals" -- given how you have described circumstances -- seem actionable.


When leading ANYONE, underwater or otherwise, the ONLY protection we have are the standards presented by the agency through which we issue certs, and the insurance policy that underwrites those standards. To deviate is to place one's neck on the chopping block... what we call in my "neck" of the woods, the Lady Jane Grey... as in "Stupid muppet just pulled a Lady Jane."