Which Scuba Destinations Do You Consider Rather Dangerous?

[drrich2]

But how does reading the news help one decide whether to visit a dive destination because it is "safe enough" or to not visit the destination because it is "too dangerous"? What criteria should we be looking at in the news or elsewhere? What should be our threshold? I don't have the answers--just the questions!

Everybody's answers are different, & few would be really 'data-driven' or 'evidence-based.' Let's take Belize; much of the country is considered safe, but Belize City has a rep. for being 'rough,' a place an unseasoned newbie with no local knowledge might not want to wander around at random. That's the impression I get from postings about it. How will people react?

1.) Oh, okay! Thanks for telling me! I won't wander there; just stick to my cruise ship excursion, or the shuttle from airport to live-aboard & back, etc...

2.) Hmmm...thanks, but I'll research further & judge for myself. Maybe avoid specific bad neighborhoods, but do a little daylight touring.

3.) I've got 'common sense,' am reasonably street-savy & self-confident, & observe good practices like sticking to populated areas that don't look highly impoverished & don't flaunt wealth (e.g.: don't wear expensive jewelry, etc...) or get drunk in bars, and don't wander at night, & I like to mingle with the locals a bit so I'll ignore your advice. I'm okay with going into seedy looking places by day, long as I don't see any obvious threats.

4.) You only live once, most people are paranoid wusses expecting a very sanitized (i.e. sterile) life experience, I can handle myself, and I'll wander where I please, have a few drinks in a bar if I feel like it, make some new friends...

But I wish everybody to have a good opportunity to make an informed (whatever that is) decision. How informed is informed? Well, that's an endless debate in its own right...

Richard.

 

[Lorenzoid]

We have this discussion so we can possibly gain some insight into a location that we are interested in traveling to, but unaware of any potential dangers. The same way someone would want some insight into the diving conditions at a destination such as current, vis, depth, etc, to see if they are compatible with their abilities and personal level of comfort. After all the only one who can prevent you from traveling to a location regardless of your individual perception is your government. Well, on second thought your spouse may be able to prevent you as well, or at least make your life so miserable it would not warrant the effort.:cool2:

---------- Post added November 20th, 2015 at 01:58 PM ----------

To give you an example, while researching the CI, I found that Little Cayman is much more suited to us than Cayman Brac because of depth. My son is an 11 year old certified diver and the reefs at LC start much shallower than the reefs at Brac. I avoid finding things out the hard way whenever possible.

Okay. Then I guess I misunderstood the original question. I kind of assumed there was nothing we hadn't all read about. In the original post Richard seemed surprised to have learned that PNG is not as safe as Bonaire, so I suppose there is relevant information that has not been as widely disseminated as I thought.

---------- Post added November 20th, 2015 at 04:16 PM ----------

Everybody's answers are different, & few would be really 'data-driven' or 'evidence-based.' Let's take Belize; much of the country is considered safe, but Belize City has a rep. for being 'rough,' a place an unseasoned newbie with no local knowledge might not want to wander around at random. That's the impression I get from postings about it. How will people react?

1.) Oh, okay! Thanks for telling me! I won't wander there; just stick to my cruise ship excursion, or the shuttle from airport to live-aboard & back, etc...

2.) Hmmm...thanks, but I'll research further & judge for myself. Maybe avoid specific bad neighborhoods, but do a little daylight touring.

3.) I've got 'common sense,' am reasonably street-savy & self-confident, & observe good practices like sticking to populated areas that don't look highly impoverished & don't flaunt wealth (e.g.: don't wear expensive jewelry, etc...) or get drunk in bars, and don't wander at night, & I like to mingle with the locals a bit so I'll ignore your advice. I'm okay with going into seedy looking places by day, long as I don't see any obvious threats.

4.) You only live once, most people are paranoid wusses expecting a very sanitized (i.e. sterile) life experience, I can handle myself, and I'll wander where I please, have a few drinks in a bar if I feel like it, make some new friends...

But I wish everybody to have a good opportunity to make an informed (whatever that is) decision. How informed is informed? Well, that's an endless debate in its own right...

Richard.

I see the point you're making--that we can make decisions based on a bunch of anecdotes from people who have traveled there--and to some extent I suppose anecdotes are as good as any information.

Maybe you just meant it as a general example of how individuals differ in risk tolerance, but I don't think Belize City is a good example. Most divers just transit through, and I don't think anyone has ever encountered any harm from sticking to just that. There are many places in the world just like Belize City, where a diver could venture off to, leaving the relative safety of the dive destination itself to explore the surrounding area. Since many good dive destinations are in less-developed parts of the world, it is not surprising that some of them are quite near to places that most any of us would be wary of. I might put San Pedro Sula, Honduras in the same category as Belize City. If a diver on a Bay Islands trip goes off to explore SPS, I think that's a data point best suited for Tripadvisor, as his side trip has essentially nothing to do with the dive destination. Someone getting hurt in Belize City should not reflect on Belize as a dive destination. Since Egypt has been mentioned in this thread, I would say Cairo is another example of this kind of side-trip place that is hardly related to the dive destinations. If we are talking about dive trips, I would focus on the risk as it pertains to the dive destination and traveling to/from.

 

[gkrane]

A few categories that would really concern me when considering traveling to a new dive destination are as follows in no particular order:

1) Acts of terrorism and related issues
2) Kidnappings
3) High level of violent crime
4) Extremely unsafe/unregulated diving practices

 

[Lorenzoid]

A few categories that would really concern me when considering traveling to a new dive destination are as follows in no particular order:

1) Acts of terrorism and related issues
2) Kidnappings
3) High level of violent crime
4) Extremely unsafe/unregulated diving practices

Me, too.

 

[drrich2]

If a diver on a Bay Islands trip goes off to explore SPS, I think that's a data point best suited for Tripadvisor, as his side trip has essentially nothing to do with the dive destination. Someone getting hurt in Belize City should not reflect on Belize as a dive destination.

That's an interesting angle. There are some destinations people go to just to dive, or otherwise pretty much 'stay on the reservation.' But for some people, while diving's a big deal, topside cultural exploration & mingling may be a big part of things, and some destinations (e.g.: Dominica) are discussed as though if you don't partake of some of the topside offerings, you're missing out. Lots of non-divers on these trips, too.

Trip Advisor offers a broader topside overview of varied attractions & issues. On the other hand, some people may research a destination mainly on ScubaBoard and not Trip Advisor (I do both nowadays).

In the original post Richard seemed surprised to have learned that PNG is not as safe as Bonaire, so I suppose there is relevant information that has not been as widely disseminated as I thought.

I was! What I've read a bit here & there about PNG, I pictured a sparsely populated rainforested coastal backwater with dive resorts here & there (I didn't research it because I've not planned a trip there). Even if I did read up on it, I'd probably focus on dive trip reports, which sometimes omit the seedier aspects of a destination. Consider this bit from BowlOfPetunia's post about it:

PNG was an eye opener for me. Armed security guards patrolling the airport. Our hotel was 100M from the airport but sent a van to pick us up because it wasn't safe to walk it. The chain link fences topped with barbed wire around most places and all but the poorest homes (homes is an exaggeration).

If we did a poll of 100 divers originating from the U.S. & diving that same area of PNG, who in theory would've seen what she saw, I wonder how many of them would say yes, I knew in advance and it's what I expected, and how many had the wide-eyed 'Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas' look?

Richard.

 

[gkrane]

What does PNG have that the rest of the world doesn't that would make one even want to deal with those issues? If I recall correctly, it is extremely expensive and hard to get to with long travel times.

 

[Wingy]

What does PNG have - Amazing diving. A very welcome lack of resorts everywhere, fantastic scenery and for people like me who enjoy being off the beaten path - wilderness. I also enjoy the sense of 40,000 years ago PNG has about it, that sense of what could be up in that jungle is something I personally find interesting. I have found it interesting the repeated mention of tripadvisor as a go to source on this thread - Tripadvisor being IMO nothing more than a personal review site of restaurants and attractions etc. TBH Tripadvisor and Scubaboard are the last places I look at before setting off for a new destination. I moderate the biggest travelblog site on the net so I have an endless source of blogs going back a decade to trawl through, I also look at World Nomads, Lonely Planet and their Thorntree forums and perhaps because of our travelblog site if I have an unanswered question I can check who wrote the blog and contact them for further info.

 

[drrich2]

Tripadvisor being IMO nothing more than a personal review site of restaurants and attractions etc. TBH Tripadvisor and Scubaboard are the last places I look at before setting off for a new destination. I moderate the biggest travelblog site on the net so I have an endless source of blogs going back a decade to trawl through, I also look at Lonely Planet and their Thorntree forums and perhaps because of our travelblog site if I have an unanswered question I can check who wrote the blog and contact them for further info.

Another reminder that general public naivety is a factor hard to gauge. Just what sources should one review to research a destination? How many are enough?

I mainly use TP to look for Things To Do, and have used it for restaurants. I happened to notice a forum function, but only used to to scan for specific topics, and some places don't have a lot. I don't recall 'Crime & Hazards' being reliably prominent offerings. Can your trust TP? Doc noted:

Real, in depth, yet goofy-as-hell threads develop at TwitAdvisor over similarly phrased OPs.

Since I don't spend much time on TP forums, I don't know the posters personally.

Kevrumbo noted:

Before departure, be sure to check for any last minute traveler's advisories or warnings regarding civil unrest or health epidemic conditions in the country you are about to visit (as well as the location of the U.S. Embassy or Consolate):

Alerts and Warnings

Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC

How many people are aware of this, or do it? You know the ScubaBoard trip to the Philippines planned for next year? Well, I see the Philippines come up on the Alerts & Warnings Link. It says:

Philippines Travel Warning

LAST UPDATED: OCTOBER 21, 2015

The Department of State warns U.S. citizens of the risks of travel to the Philippines, in particular to the Sulu Archipelago, certain regions and cities of the island of Mindanao, and the southern Sulu Sea area. This Travel Warning replaces the Travel Warning dated May 20, 2015, and reflects continuing threats in those areas due to terrorist and insurgent activities.

U.S. citizens should continue to defer non-essential travel to the Sulu Archipelago, due to the high threat of kidnapping of international travelers and violence linked to insurgency and terrorism there.
Based on a history of kidnappings and attempted kidnappings of foreigners in the Eastern Sabah province of Malaysia and in the southern Sulu Sea area by terrorist or insurgent groups based in the Sulu Archipelago, U.S. citizens should continue to exercise extreme caution if considering travel in the southern Sulu Sea region from the southern tip of Palawan, along the coast of Sabah, Malaysia and the islands of the Sulu Archipelago, up to Zamboanga City, Mindanao.
U.S. citizens should also continue to exercise extreme caution if traveling to certain regions and cities of the island of Mindanao. Separatist and terrorist groups continue to conduct bombings, kidnappings and attacks against civilians, political leaders, and Philippine security forces. Over the past nine months, at least 15 separate kidnappings have been reported across Mindanao. In western Mindanao, terrorist, insurgent, and criminal gangs regularly conduct kidnappings for ransom, including the kidnapping of a foreigner in Dipolog City in early October 2015 by unknown assailants. In central Mindanao, the Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters (BIFF) remain active in the Cotabato City area, and in the Maguindanao, North Cotabato, and Sultan Kudarat provinces, where the government maintains a state of emergency and a greater police presence. While there have been no recent reported terrorist threats or incidents within the Davao City or Surigao city limits, eastern Mindanao is not free from threats. In September 2015, assailants believed to be members of the Abu Sayyaf Group kidnapped four individuals from the popular resort island of Samal, a 15 minute boat ride from Davao City. Two other individuals narrowly escaped kidnapping in the same incident. There have been no reports of U.S. citizens in Mindanao targeted specifically for their nationality; however, general threats to U.S. citizens and other foreigners throughout Mindanao remain a concern.
Although U.S. government officials in the Philippines travel to Mindanao for official business without incident, the Embassy has imposed a strict restriction on all but the most essential travel to the area, and Embassy employees must receive special authorization from Embassy security officials to travel to any location in Mindanao and the Sulu archipelago.
We strongly recommend that U.S. citizens traveling to or residing in the Philippines enroll in the Department of State’s Smart Traveler Enrollment Program (STEP). STEP enrollment gives you the latest security updates, and makes it easier for the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to contact you in an emergency. If you don’t have Internet access, enroll directly with the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate.
Regularly monitor the State Department's website, where you can find current Travel Warnings, Travel Alerts, and the Worldwide Caution. Read the Country Specific Information for the Philippines. For additional information, refer to the Traveler's Checklist on the State Department’s website.
Contact the U.S. embassy or consulate for up-to-date information on travel restrictions. You can also call 1-888-407-4747 toll-free in the United States and Canada or 1-202-501-4444 from other countries. These numbers are available from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays). Follow us on Twitter and Facebook to have travel information at your fingertips.
The U.S. Embassy is located at: 1201 Roxas Boulevard, Manila, Philippines, tel. 63-2-301-2000. The American Citizens Services (ACS) section's fax number is 63-2-301-2017, and you may reach the ACS Section by email at ACSinfoManila@state.gov. The ACS Section's websiteincludes consular information and the most recent messages to the U.S. citizen community in the Philippines.

Granted, I doubt the ScubaBoard trip is to the Sulu Archipelago. I suspect this whole mess will be a non-issue for the group.

How many Scuba Board dive tourists are enrolled in the Smart Traveler Enrollment Program? Or even know what it is? I didn't. I was almost too lazy to look, too, so for people like me, I'll copy & paste a blurb from their link.

What is STEP?		Benefits of Enrolling in STEP
The Smart Traveler Enrollment Program (STEP) is a free service to allow U.S. citizens and nationals traveling abroad to enroll their trip with the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate.		Receive important information from the Embassy about safety conditions in your destination country, helping you make informed decisions about your travel plans. Help the U.S. Embassy contact you in an emergency, whether natural disaster, civil unrest, or family emergency. Help family and friends get in touch with you in an emergency.

Richard.

 

[Wingy]

Glad you bought up the smart traveller sites - they work. Coming back from Sorong a few months ago I got to Makassar and had an alert re Mt Ruang a full four days before any flight cancellations - this allowed me to ring the airline and enquire re flight changes if necessary and make a decision. In 2012 I was diving off the west coast of Sumatra and had a lovely dive through an 8.6 earthquake then a post dive coffee while having another 8.2 quake. I had recieved an sms message from the Jakarta Consulate asking if I needed any consular assistance as I was registered as being in the immediate area. The first message came through within 5 minutes of the first quake. Subsequent message was because I had not replied. I have also had the Canadian consulate (being the nearest embassy) contact me in Cambodia re scheduled flight into Bangkok that day as the red shirt riots were going down and there was talk of the airport being a centre of activity. The system works, Id recommend everyone use it. It costs nothing - unfortunately many people just log on and see the travel warnings and leave it at that.

How many sites is too many sites to research? again - a personal thing. I like scouring the web to find anything about a destination - 99% of it may be useless but there have been times where ive found something I want to know randomly googling.

 

[gkrane]

What does PNG have - Amazing diving. A very welcome lack of resorts everywhere, fantastic scenery and for people like me who enjoy being off the beaten path - wilderness. I also enjoy the sense of 40,000 years ago PNG has about it, that sense of what could be up in that jungle is something I personally find interesting. I have found it interesting the repeated mention of tripadvisor as a go to source on this thread - Tripadvisor being IMO nothing more than a personal review site of restaurants and attractions etc. TBH Tripadvisor and Scubaboard are the last places I look at before setting off for a new destination. I moderate the biggest travelblog site on the net so I have an endless source of blogs going back a decade to trawl through, I also look at Lonely Planet and their Thorntree forums and perhaps because of our travelblog site if I have an unanswered question I can check who wrote the blog and contact them for further info.

I can understand the amazing diving, but is it diving that is found nowhere else? The wilderness adventure has run its course with me. I spent a few years in my 20's in the Alaskan wilderness that satisfied my appetite for off the beaten path adventuring. I realize it wasn't a jungle but it was beyond remote. I think I have many more mainstream places to visit that will satisfy me until a PNG trip pops up on my list.