When should you flunk a student

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The only reason NAUI took me at age fourteen in 1966 was because I had already been privately trained by two fifty+ year old former Navy UDT divers at Diver's Training Academy in Ft. Lauderdale (hometown)and had been on five ocean dives with my Aqua Addicts dive club(and was a Civil Air Patrol cadet). Al Tillman and John C. Jones signatures are on my NAUI certificate.(They founded NAUI, not to mention the predecessor Los Angeles County Underwater Instructor's Course)(Al Tillman died last year...he was a truly GREAT man in this sport)Wouldn't it be strange if he and Jacques/Phillipe Cousteau reincarnated and became young kid divers? You never know!
 
OK, let me back up a bit here. This last guy I mentioned in Post #94 is 30 years old...by no means a kid.

I agree with you guys, if it was a kid, practice more to get it right. With an adult who thinks he knows what he is doing, that's just plain scary. That's why I say that an instructor or even a divemaster has to pull him aside and have a one on one talk.
 
OK,
To the original topic, Yes, if the kid did not pass a requirement, flunk him/her. No sense in passing the kid to have them endanger themself and the dive partners, be it their parents or not.
To be fair for the kids. If they are mature "enough", let them enjoy the sport. My daughter, 10 yrs old, just got certified in May. Passed the written test with 94%, and had no problem whatsoever with the OW dive. She is one heck of a diver now. Very confident in herself, very calm, BUT I will always be there with her. She has been diving in lake, springs, even one time in Florida gulf coast. Handled herself very well.
It's the mental readiness, not the age. Yes, it come with age.... sometime :).
 
Well, since this thread just keeps going and going I will add somemore ...

I posted early in this thread about myself, my wife, and our granddaughter taking the PADI OW course.

Things went OK thru the pool and course work, but on the OW test, things got a little tough.

We dive in a gravel pit around here, vis about 20'. Things kind of creep up on you, like the stuff they have on the bottom ... boats, a WWII minisub and a full size bus.

We had to sit on the roof of the bus and do our standard stuff, reg clear, mask clear, octo exchange with Kurt (our instructor). There were bluegills all around us.

Emily kind of freaked (the granddaughter, 11). We went to the surface and Kurt explained to Emily what diving is all about. It is fun, but it is also about conquering your fears and having fun. If she was not comfortable (she was crying when we came up), he could not certify her. It was a very potent and heart felt little speech. He cared about her and did not want her getting into trouble.

I expected her to give up right there, but she said, "lets do it again". Emily and Kurt went back down while we stayed up top ... very nervous and stressed.

About 14 hours later (well it seemed that long) Kurt and Emily popped back up and things were cool. I almost cryed.

The point is, Kurt would not have certified her if he felt she was not ready. He is a very cool guy, and we owe him big time. Safety first he said.

Sorry for rambling, but this instructor is the best we could have had. No free lunch here, you had to earn your C card.

Emily will remember this the rest of her life, and so will we.

We don't know sh*t about this, but at least we are off to a good start.

Thanks for listening ...

Oh, BTW, message for Jess. Emily also hates fish.

John
(hubby to mrskti)
 
underwater daphne:
i did my ow when i was 12 and had a lot of experience with the sea growing up on an island. my dad was a diver and the resort my parents ran had a dive center as well. as a kid i learnt a lot about the dangers of diving as unfortunately some divers/snorkellers/swimmers died during that time.
my owd course was very professional and we practiced a lot in swimming pools, sometimes even at night.
afterwards i usually dived with my father who is very safety conscious. this way i learnt there is nothing more important than safety, and having a buddy means you have to look out for each other. i've dived with various ppl since, but seldom had the feeling of having a proper buddy, more like someone doing the same thing next to you.

since i quit diving after we moved to switzerland i decided to repeat my owd a few years ago (i'm 25 now). what should i say, i don't really approve of padi's certifying policy or the policy of some instructors. since i totally hated diving in the lake, my instructor let me off easy by adding some dives to my log book and telling me to hush. i didn't care since i had been certified before and i really hated the freezing lake dive. still looking back, i didn't have the card to prove it and the instructor only saw me underwater during that one short lake dive.
another thing, i had too many mistakes for my written owd both times. isn't it nice that they just explain your mistakes with you briefly and then ask you to sign the statement below, saying you now understand.
owd is, i think, the most important course you'll do as a rec diver. whatever you learn later is based on your owd. there should be particular emphasize on that course, no matter at what age. i doubt the sport will disapear just because ppl actually have to know skills that are sometimes difficult to pass.



KUDOS!

I hear you...excellent point. I grew up in Ft. Lauderdale and we had a boat. Learned to swim at age four. Was ocean snorkeling at five. No one's parents would let them dive unless
they were a member of one of the local dive clubs, to insure adult competent supervision. (Dive chaperones)

The instructors, mostly NAUI, put kids on probation...kind of a suspended sentence...until their skills were up to par.
(By kids I mean 14 and up. No one under thirteen was allowed!)MOST KIDS MADE IT WITH FLYING COLORS THE SECOND TIME AROUND! There was no need to "flunk" a kid and give him/her a failure complex! All experienced divers are all too familiar with second chances. I was the youngest (by far) person in my NAUI class...the older guys tutored me a bit when I got off course.(we ere all experienced ocean divers already, by the way. I only needed a little help with Henry's and Dalton's laws...the partial pressure stuff was a bit confusing at first.

When I forst went to SEACAMP at 14, they wouldn't let us bring our SCUBA gear until we were 16! The American Medical Association had issued a report from their thoratic surgeons' committee that said little kids should not SCUBA as their bodies were still developing and the water/air pressure could affect growth. Then we never heard anything else about it. Some said it was DEMA in action covering it up.
 
Agian, lots of good posts and good information. I never finished my instructor rating (got married). However, during my training I taught alot of supervised classes and did alot of helping in the pool for other instructors. In fact, i'm helping out right now for my wife's and daughter's class.

Of all the students I've worked with during those years, there was only one that dropped out (we didn't flunk her and notice I didn't separate kids and adults, yet). She found that she was severely closterfobic and couldn't handle the confined feeling. Otherwise, we had several students (adults and teenagers) that didn't finish with their class. We never let anyone out to OW without passing their confined water skills for their own safety. Most were able to relax enough without the stress of "finishing on time" to get things squared away within two to three more pool sessions with the next class.

I learned that patience and observation is most of what it took to get students past their problems. Some take to SCUBA like fish to water (pardon the pun) and others like a cat being thrown in the pool. If they really wanted to do it, we took the extra time to help them overcome their fears and insure they were safe to themselves and their future buddies.

As for teens. We also spoke with parents and informed them of the expectations. This was a paid class. They would have to conduct themselves accordingly and would be held to the same standards as everyone else. We didn't treat them any different, however, we did expect a level of maturity that would make them safe divers. As was mentioned in other posts, we've had adults that were less mature than younger teens. Anyway, we always preferred older teens, and my own daughter didn't start her cert until she was nearly 16.

Flunk them? No, those are usually the people that really want the cert and just need the extra help and attention. Kids? We're all kids at heart, its just a question of whether or not they are mature enough to be safe divers for their own safety.
 
tbuckalew:
Agian, lots of good posts and good information. I never finished my instructor rating (got married). However, during my training I taught alot of supervised classes and did alot of helping in the pool for other instructors. In fact, i'm helping out right now for my wife's and daughter's class.

Of all the students I've worked with during those years, there was only one that dropped out (we didn't flunk her and notice I didn't separate kids and adults, yet). She found that she was severely closterfobic and couldn't handle the confined feeling. Otherwise, we had several students (adults and teenagers) that didn't finish with their class. We never let anyone out to OW without passing their confined water skills for their own safety. Most were able to relax enough without the stress of "finishing on time" to get things squared away within two to three more pool sessions with the next class.

I learned that patience and observation is most of what it took to get students past their problems. Some take to SCUBA like fish to water (pardon the pun) and others like a cat being thrown in the pool. If they really wanted to do it, we took the extra time to help them overcome their fears and insure they were safe to themselves and their future buddies.

As for teens. We also spoke with parents and informed them of the expectations. This was a paid class. They would have to conduct themselves accordingly and would be held to the same standards as everyone else. We didn't treat them any different, however, we did expect a level of maturity that would make them safe divers. As was mentioned in other posts, we've had adults that were less mature than younger teens. Anyway, we always preferred older teens, and my own daughter didn't start her cert until she was nearly 16.

Flunk them? No, those are usually the people that really want the cert and just need the extra help and attention. Kids? We're all kids at heart, its just a question of whether or not they are mature enough to be safe divers for their own safety.
This is the best post I've read in a while - no offense meant to any of the other posters - but tbuckalew relfects my own feeling of how a scbua class "should" be.
 

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