When can a pony replace a secondary 2nd stage?

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2airishuman

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I ask questions because they're interesting and because I want to plan my equipment purchases so that I don't spend money on things that don't make sense in the long term. Not because I'm going to go out and dive with a pony next week.

When diving with a buddy, when can a pony + 1st stage + second stage be considered an adequate source of emergency air for your buddy, such that a secondary 2nd stage from the back gas is not necessary?

If relying on the pony in such a situation, is there any standard convention on which reg is donated or on hose configuration and routing? Is a long hose on the primary still used?
 
Pony bottles and primary donation stem from two fundamentally different areas of diving, so you tend not to see the two discussed together, but I'll lay it out for you.

Primary donation is better, just is. It's in your mouth, it's always there, it's known to be working, etc etc. Don't buy into the golden triangle BS because it is just that, BS. Having the secondary on a suicide strap/necklace is just a superior way to dive.

Now, pony bottles are an interesting beast because you have to ways to choose to use them. Your backup gas, or your buddies backup gas. How you make this decision will determine your setup. If you choose to have it as your backup gas, then you would still donate your primary and instead of or in addition to having a secondary second stage, you would then switch to your pony. In this situation the pony is ideally attached to your primary bottle and you would use it in place of your secondary second stage. This requires a sufficiently sized bottle however so you have to do rock bottom calculations to make sure it is big enough. For recreational diving, an AL30 is about as small as you should go. This will pretty safely get you up from 130ft. You can get away with an AL19, but they aren't particularly useful for anything else where the al30 can at least be used for decompression later down the road.

If you choose to donate the pony bottle *not my recommendation*, then you can choose to do that, but the downside to this system is you have to sling the bottle and your buddy has to be able to take it. This system is not compatible with most traditional BCD's so I would not set my system up to have this as the primary method. It works fine with a team full of bp/w's because of the d-rings, but a traditional jacket doesn't have the ability to manage a slung pony easily and most recreational divers will not be comfortable enough to manage a bottle transfer. Combine this with the tendency for panicked divers to grab the second stage out of your mouth, and you may as well plan for the worst and have your primary be ready for donation. This also gives the likely panicked OOA diver the most amount of available gas since it's in your primary.

The issue with pony's is they aren't always available if you travel, so for local diving they're fine, but if you own your own tanks, I would go to an H-valve instead which still gives you regulator redundancy but isn't a lot of extra gear to have to deal with. For travel you can change your reg configuration and dive a normal single tank setup. The other advantage to H-valves is if doubles are intriguing to you, it will be an easier transition to that type of configuration and the regulators won't require any changing.
 
Forget the pony bottle.
Use a larger volume cylinder like a steel 95 and equip it with an "H" valve. Put a 40 inch hose on the secondary regulator set and be done with it.
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If you are carrying a pony that is generally considered your emergency gas supply. While you could hand off a pony bottle I wouldn't. Last thing I want to do is give a diver who is possibly stressed a way to take off without me being in control of them.

A pony bottle is not considered a reserve for your buddy. Your buddy's reserve gas is on your back. Yours is on his.

The pony bottle can be a two edged sword for those who don't use it right. It needs to be deployed and practiced with on a regular basis. The reg needs to be just as good as your primary. Your octo should be as good as your primary. The last thing I want is a reg that breathes like crap if I am in a situation where I may be stressed. If I were carrying one and my gas supply got too low (if I let that happen I should just quit diving) and a buddy came to me LOA or OOA, first I'm going to give him my primary, slap him for not watching his gas (KIDDING HERE!), then I'll go on the pony bottle.

The only reason to not have a back up reg if you are also carrying a pony is if you are diving solo in my mind. Even then stuff happens and I may want to go on my octo to fix an issue with my primary underwater, or just to practice reg switching. Long hose, back up on a bungee, and good gas planning as a new OW recreational diver. The pony can wait. I wish I'd waited on mine. That 19 cu ft tank rarely gets used except as a blow gun or to inflate tires, rafts, etc. My 30's and 40's see a lot more use.
 
When you are absolutely sure you will not encounter another diver who needs some of your gas.
 
Short answer. If you are buddy diving, rig should include an alternate of choice (not counting the pony). If you are solo diving you can choose to omit the alternate.
 
Primary (no octo) Air 2 / Air 3 - and a pony bottle is an option as well.
:D

You need to understand your risk tolerance before you decide your setup - at least in my opinion.
 
I think it really depends on the activity you're doing. I've participated in 3 of your threads now and I don't believe I've heard you state why you are diving or what your activities are going to be. ???

On my first spearfishing trip I quickly realized I was basically a solo diver. I immediately went out and bought a used Luxfer 19 cu. ft. tank ($60), a Hollis DC3 Din and 212 reg set ($200) a pony SPG ($15) and the Highland Pony Tank Mount ($80). I mount the tank inverted so I can control the valve. The hose and reg are secured like you would a stage bottle. I just reach back, grap the reg and pull it loose. I still dive with an octo on my necklace. All my regs are Hollis.

Up to this point I've gone on other peoples boats to learn how to run a dive boat/spearfishing trip. Right now I'm getting close to the point where I would feel comfortable hosting divers on my boat. I'm working on building a crew to dive with that will hunt using the buddy system. In fact, I'd like to establish a system like the commercial guys where they have two hunters and one gatherer and everyone is watching each other's backs. If I can put together a solid crew I can trust then I may reconsider the pony, but for now it's coming with me.

If I do a benign exploration dive with a buddy I could see not having to bring it, but at this point, I own it, so why not? Better to have and not need than need and not have.

Edit: Note, I would sling the bottle, but it impedes pulling the bands on my gun. Slinging is probably the best way to do it, but you have to make compromises.

---------- Post added December 7th, 2015 at 06:57 PM ----------

I'll also add that I intend on buying a yellow purge cover plate for my pony reg and I'll replace the black mouth piece zip tie with a yellow one so I can easily differentiate it between my primary if for whatever reason during a deployment both regs end up freely floating in the water I would want to quickly be able to identify the correct one.
 
I ask questions because they're interesting and because I want to plan my equipment purchases so that I don't spend money on things that don't make sense in the long term. Not because I'm going to go out and dive with a pony next week.

When diving with a buddy, when can a pony + 1st stage + second stage be considered an adequate source of emergency air for your buddy, such that a secondary 2nd stage from the back gas is not necessary?

If relying on the pony in such a situation, is there any standard convention on which reg is donated or on hose configuration and routing? Is a long hose on the primary still used?

Is there a standard convention? Answer: I don't think so.

I don't see the need to manage three second stages. If the pony has enough capacity to get you to the surface, then what is the problem with donating your primary regulator (from your primary tank) and then you going to the pony for the ascent?


  • Why do you need a third second stage?
  • What benefit does the 3rd second stage provide?
  • Is the benefit (of a third second stage) worth the added complexity?
  • Is the benefit worth the increased chance of failure?
  • Is the benefit worth the chance of you getting the 3 second stages confused and accidentally using the pony and thinking it is the primary reg -- this has killed people.
  • What about the more common issue of freeflows.. isn't two second stages enough to manage?
  • Is it worth the cost?



There is often a lot of disagreement about these basic issues and even the minimum size that a pony needs to be. I favor a smaller, lighter pony - but in a true emergency it will give me less options and i will have to handle things efficiently and quickly to get out of Dodge.

I screwed up big time a few years ago and ran out while solo at about 125 ft while swimming super hard and when it got hard to inhale, I bailed to a 6 cu-ft pony and headed out of there pretty fast. I was able to calm down, relax on ascent and make it to 20 ft where I went back on the main, large steel tank and did a normal safety stop.
 

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