When are you ready to learn diving?

[AlexL]

So this is done in the world of diving ... somehere... I was wondering.... all the scuba classes you see and no using of the one tool that really would drive the point home...

when i asked our local instructors (mostly SSI, NAUI, and PADI) as to why they don't use video cameras during class, the primary reasoning they gave was liability risk, with a time constraint a close second.

task loading with a camera is quite insidious, and with normal recreational class sizes it can quickly become a major issue if the instructor isn't constantly using both the eyes in front and on the back of their head. meanwhile, when you're already run ragged just trying to get the checkout dives in and done without anyone being successful in their best attempts to injure themselves, throwing in another few hours of work to review and critique video is just not going to happen on a recreational scuba instructor budget.

c'est la vie...

 

[boulderjohn]

when i asked our local instructors (mostly SSI, NAUI, and PADI) as to why they don't use video cameras during class, the primary reasoning they gave was liability risk, with a time constraint a close second.

task loading with a camera is quite insidious, and with normal recreational class sizes it can quickly become a major issue if the instructor isn't constantly using both the eyes in front and on the back of their head. meanwhile, when you're already run ragged just trying to get the checkout dives in and done without anyone being successful in their best attempts to injure themselves, throwing in another few hours of work to review and critique video is just not going to happen on a recreational scuba instructor budget.

c'est la vie...

The instructor can't do the videotaping--you would have to hire another employee to videotape the class.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

The instructor can't do the videotaping--you would have to hire another employee to videotape the class.

Couldn't this be done with a camera set in a specific location in the pool or CW area where each student is led to the "mark" where they then do skills so the camera can record?

I will say that in my CW dives we were pressed for time and barely finished in 8 1/2 hours so reviewing film and discussing what we did wrong and right would take an additional session. I have heard that some shops have a set time limit..such as CW in a day and then two days for the 4 OW dives. I would think shops that flow down those kind of expectations to instructors really limit the instructor as to just how well they can train their students and could even cause them to rush in order to train within the shops set schedule.

Can anyone else confirm that or deny that some shops do this?

 

[boulderjohn]

. I have heard that some shops have a set time limit..such as CW in a day and then two days for the 4 OW dives.

In general, shops have schedules like this for pool work, and they have to. Most shops do not have their own pools, and they have to rent time in some nearby pool. That time is strictly scheduled. they schedule what they believe is adequate time, and usually it is. The skilled instructor learns how to budget time, keeps an eye on the clock, and gets done on time--usually. There is an "accordion" feature in the schedule in that part of the class is supposed to involve free swimming to practice buoyancy. There is no set amount of time for this, so the instructor can increase or decrease that time as needed.

Problems occur with the unexpected, which usually means an unusually slow student or two holding up the entire class. When that happens, the instructor starts to scramble for options as time goes by. Good use of an assistant can help. The class needs to be finished--all standards need to be met--so if time is getting short, the instructor has to be pretty good in budgeting that time. In extreme cases, the instructor has to take the troubled student(s) aside and suggest either a having private session at another time (at additional expense) or joining another class on another date.

The academic sessions are also scheduled for specific amounts of time, and, once again, that time is usually ample. Like the pool sessions, it is an unusual student who takes much too long that can threaten getting the class completed on time. If that happens, though, it is usually not a problem because these classes typically take place in the shop, so there is no problem with running late.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

In general, shops have schedules like this for pool work, and they have to. Most shops do not have their own pools, and they have to rent time in some nearby pool. That time is strictly scheduled. they schedule what they believe is adequate time, and usually it is. The skilled instructor learns how to budget time, keeps an eye on the clock, and gets done on time--usually. There is an "accordion" feature in the schedule in that part of the class is supposed to involve free swimming to practice buoyancy. There is no set amount of time for this, so the instructor can increase or decrease that time as needed.

Problems occur with the unexpected, which usually means an unusually slow student or two holding up the entire class. When that happens, the instructor starts to scramble for options as time goes by. Good use of an assistant can help. The class needs to be finished--all standards need to be met--so if time is getting short, the instructor has to be pretty good in budgeting that time. In extreme cases, the instructor has to take the troubled student(s) aside and suggest either a having private session at another time (at additional expense) or joining another class on another date.

The academic sessions are also scheduled for specific amounts of time, and, once again, that time is usually ample. Like the pool sessions, it is an unusual student who takes much too long that can threaten getting the class completed on time. If that happens, though, it is usually not a problem because these classes typically take place in the shop, so there is no problem with running late.

Thanks for that great insight!!

 

[TMHeimer]

I just skimmed through the posts of last 24 hrs. (so many), as seems lots of good advice. There are many threads on swimming vs. scuba. Remember that swimming has nothing to do with fins. It is a competitive sport, unlike scuba. Though of course many just swim laps to get in shape. It is a "life skill" that IMO everyone who does any water activity should have. Yes, proper swim strokes have nothing to do with swimming on scuba, since you (mostly, I say) don't use your arms. But I won't rehash any more of those old threads.

 

[Schwob]

Once she gets to the point where she is simply comfortable in water, and if cost is not a major consideration, consider looking into a GUE Rec 1 course for your wife. That's GUE's version of the basic OW course, designed for people with no previous diving experience. Video debriefs and the works.

Will learn about it. Thanks.

 

[Schwob]

Guys:
Thanks for all the advise. It's good and well meant advise. Appreciate the effort and help!

About swimming being a live skill and such: Yes. absolutely. No contest. Am on board with that thought since at least 1970, probably a few years earlier - basically since the minute I knew how to swim and one of my friends didn't yet... Fished someone out of the Mediterranean, a couple of rivers and a couple of lakes ... and once from an iced over river... - they (and I) were lucky... much better would have been if they could have swum...) I get the need to be able to swim somewhat well and I see it as a need and live-skill. Nevertheless, even so she came a really long way so far, I am somewhat stumped by how to get my wife truly comfortable to that level (and to see it as a need, not a choice) and how much other important things in life interfere with that even becoming close to being a priority..
So, please understand... I understand that idea. I am on board with it... I am not needing more help with getting that thought... it's the getting there "in deed" that I am challenged with...

So now, after many years of mostly just "work", noe that we reach a period in our live where maybe what to do with our time has a chance to move a little higher on our list of priorities..., I am trying to figure out how to help my wife with that next move (one last all out time maybe)... the move that determines if diving will be part of our live ... or just mine...

So, I try to summarize here in an exaggerated fashion of what I gather the options might be and how I interpret them for this, our case... in maybe an order of achieving complete water comfort first and not starting diving prior thereto - to just don't dive 'cause she is too much of a risk factor...
Now, complete and utter comfort in water is not at all what some of the agencies require - but that's what some of you suggest - for good reasons... so lets start there as the one extreme...

a.) Achieve, by some yet really TBD way, good swimming skills and complete water comfort prior to taking a scuba class. Then find a time and place and instructor to do it. At that point it might even be a GUE class. - or not TBD and also a matter of cost.
CAVEATs:
- No chance to use a positive diving-learning-experience under well controlled conditions as part of the driving motivation to put in even more work to really become really comfortable in the water...
- No referrals for the swimming whisperer in Chicagoland yet... - hint: It's not me... (not with my wife anyway - and it's not whom we already tried some time back...
- & what to do with my daughter maybe wanting to get started in the meantime and preferably doing so on a family vacation somewhere nice, warm, reef... In one of those rare weeks when she is not in college or otherwise busy...

b.) Get to the point where my wife is comfortable enough to meet the (pretty lax, but big achievment for her) swimming requirements that some agencies require before starting an OW class... and then take a class. - the right class. Well I think she is one to two months away from that. I may be wrong, but she is close and I am seeing it maybe a bit on the critical side. Get her to that point and then pull the trigger. BUT -with the right instructor and in the right environment so as to get her interested and motivated to keep working on it more. (Not to get her in trouble diving stuff she has no business diving).
CAVEATs:
- She at that point is not really a real swimmer and not really as water-comfortable as most of us would think one should be. Something could happen that could send her into a panic. (But that, as some point out, could happen even to competent swimmers, just not as "likely" ... and on the other hand, if the class is done well and paced right she may also just work through all that and have a few Eureka moments that are hard to achieve by "just treading more water in more ways in a pool to get more water comfortable"...)
- The right place is far (warm, good vis, low current, simple shore dives ideally (maybe we should be flexible on that last one...)...
- The right instructor for "all that" needs to be found... wow... tough one, especially in conjunction with "the right place". Looks like my wife is the kind of student most (understandably) tend to not want to have ... the kind that olds up the class... Hence the inquiry about what kind of instructor, which one specifically maybe and what kind of class (maybe not a group of 20 then... maybe a small group, maybe it needs to be one to one, maybe my wife and daughter together might work, maybe even w/o already needing a DM on top of the instructor...). (shoutout to Pete: liked your replies!.)
- That "Swimming Whisperer" still would come in handy...

c.) Face it: She was a hopeless "panicer" in the water once (only when deeper than she could stand in ) and still is not really fully water comfortable. Even if and when she learns how to really swim, no matter how well, it is likely that when scuba diving, she sooner or later will experience panic (as it can happen to all of us) but due to her past fears and discomfort, it is more likely to be a "terminal encounter with panic". So don't even think about starting to dive... - ever. - Well OK, I drove that one a bit further than anyone making that point did..... But that's an opinion people who are not at all comfortable in the water do face... and so does she... A status quo re-enforcing opinion... But not necessarily a wrong one... TBD...
Anyway, so option C is "don't dive, just snorkel".
Caveats: Long, underwater panic free, non-diving live... until maybe a bunch of snorkeling leads to true "water comfort"

So there is risk. And more so than with a person comfortable in the water. We all know that. My thinking was that "case b" is good enough to get started - in a well managed, well stepped way and to use that to aid with motivation to get even more comfortable in the water and to use that to do more and more well controlled water based activities which become more and more possible because we are actively breaking down a wall. Some really think differently.
We likely would like it better if we could "just" get to the point where "case a" is a real option, but having a little fun along the way of getting there would be nice too...

So, for the moment I keep trying to work towards "case b" and see where that gets us...

I definitely am open for swim Whisperer referrals (ideally NW Chicagoland...) and thoughts on whom to then ultimately take the OW class with and where...

If "case a" happens first, so be it... Doubt it, but i'll take it. Any day..
"Case b" would be just fine if that works out... I have hopes it might...
If we end up resigning to "case c".... SAD DAY !.. But then at least we know and go with that...

 

[dmaziuk]

Get her to Bonaire, put one of those teletubby snorkeling masks on her, safety sausage optional if she already can float OK, see what happens then.

My wife got hooked after snorkeling in Capt. Cook's Bay in Kona, but that's a slightly more expensive family trip. My wife never had water issues, though, but OTOH she never snorkeled before that time either. (Crossing over to DSD thread: when she got out of the water, she said we were getting SCUBA certs.)

I know someone else who burned the skin off his back snorkeling in Hawaii: the guy like it so much he just kept going for several hours straight and ended up with a seriously bad sunburn.

There are plenty of reasons to take up swimming if you have easy access to a pool.

 

[NYCNaiad]

I wish I knew someone in the Chicago area to help you find a great swim coach, but I'm sure a thorough Google search could assist you since I did a quick check & saw some options come up.

I also hope that you & your wife find the best solution....& that you don't drive yourself crazy in the process. lol Good luck!