What's your pony bottle configuration?

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We are ALL relying on gear every time we step into the ocean. It keeps us alive. All the training in the world will not keep you alive in certain gear failure situations. Thats why I believe in redundancy.

In recreational open water diving, one of the fundamental principles of safety is how to survive equipment failures. Your story about air sharing at 117ft is a perfect example of that.

It is true that we need a regulator and a tank to survive under water, but we can all survive a reg failure or loss of gas in our tank IF we are diving safely. So the pony is not needed for survival. If it was, we'd all be using one all the time and we would be trained to do so in certification classes.

This is in direct contrast to sky diving, where you MUST carry a redundant chute (I guess) because if your primary fails, you will die. Am I wrong about that? It's true that I have never sky-dived, but I do strongly suspect that jumping out of a plane without a working chute means death, unless you happen to land on the stay-puff marshmellow man.

Again, I'm not against pony use in principle, but I do think it's a misconception that it's keeping you alive.
 
In recreational open water diving, one of the fundamental principles of safety is how to survive equipment failures. Your story about air sharing at 117ft is a perfect example of that.

It is true that we need a regulator and a tank to survive under water, but we can all survive a reg failure or loss of gas in our tank IF we are diving safely. So the pony is not needed for survival. If it was, we'd all be using one all the time and we would be trained to do so in certification classes.

This is in direct contrast to sky diving, where you MUST carry a redundant chute (I guess) because if your primary fails, you will die. Am I wrong about that? It's true that I have never sky-dived, but I do strongly suspect that jumping out of a plane without a working chute means death, unless you happen to land on the stay-puff marshmellow man.

Again, I'm not against pony use in principle, but I do think it's a misconception that it's keeping you alive.

Again you try to dispell an analogy without understanding it. Skydivers dont HAVE to carry a backup any more than divers have to cary redundancy. Many chute failures can be fixed and those that cannot be fixed should have been found or avoided during packing (like maintenance and testing of a reg). It is, however, not debated in the skydive world for those that choose redundancy (almost all - but not all). They cuold easily say - If you pack your chute correctly and test it - you would never need the back-up. Also - most skydivers NEVER deployed their second chute in 1000's of dives. But they still carry them. (BTW -in the interest of full disclosure - I am not a skydiver. I took lessons (10 years ago) and made it past the first few solo dives then realized I couldnt afford that sport at the time. By the time I could afford it, noone I knew was interested so other hobbies took over.


Anyway - maybe its a matter of PERSPECTIVE.

My "recreational" diving, in the NE might offer a different perspective than what you are used to. We have visibility that can go from 15 feet to zero in a matter of seconds. 30 feet is a banner day for us. I know any location, anywhere in the world can have this same effect - but when I dove the carribean, or even NC - that they consider bad conditions below - we celebrate in NJ.

The last dive of the year I could not see my waist - so thats less than 2 ft vis.

I have had several dives where we started with 10 feet, then out of nowhere - we had zero. Worked back to the anchor line and found the strobe 18 inches from my face before I saw its brilliant flashing.

I know this can happen anywhere - lets just say it seems to happen in NJ, and maybe the NE ( I dont know), more than many other place. We plan on hitting wrecks that offer better conditions and cleaner bottom - but still.

SO - buddy seperation happens. We stay closer when vis is lower - but if I am 7 feet from my buddy and without warning vis goes from 25 to zero - there is a real chance we might get seperated. We plan for this, we plan to avoid this, we have exit strategies - BUT - in the real world - it happens. ( this is also why on certain wrecks we will run seperate reels even when close) (BTW - its not always that someone silted or kicked up the bottom, although that happens, more than often it is that we have drastic current changes, mud movement, tidal flow and naturally less "blue water" vis.)

That being said - upon seperation, with a primary reg failure at 100 feet (however unlikely) - my redundant air source becomes my lifeline. Maybe thats why NJ charters require redundant air.

In 50 feet vis - with a buddy 7 feet away and a reg failure - a redundant air source might not be as needed - but in the conditions I have trained for - I feel It would be irresponsible to myself to go in without doubles and isolation capability - or - a pony.
 
halocline,

I think you are getting out of your comfort zone using skydiving as an analogy... Actually, I find it (Skydiving and Diving) very similar in this instant...

As I was reading through this thread, manni-yunk beat me to the punch... 102 jumps (82nd Airborne) and I never jumped without a reserve... Ever! I was lucky enough to never need to use it...

Both sports are dangerous and as with jumping, you have a malfunction with both your main and your reserve, things are likely not to turn out so well... With diving, if your primary air supply fails and your reserve, be it pony or buddy fails, then again, things may not turn out so well...

Please let me say this... Not all malfunctions are fatal even in jumping... e.g. a Mae West, its where a line wraps over your chute creating two pockets (much like a bra), probably wont kill you... Diving, you have a malfunction (OOG/OOA) and either your buddy or pony has failed you, hopefully, your shallow enough to reach the surface or close enough to reach your buddy... Either case you may not dive or jump again due to the incident...!

I believe there are times when a pony is an absolute must for me... e.g. when I am hunting Meg teeth. I do not believe its necessary when its just me and my wife and we are just enjoying the diving with each other...
 
Again you try to dispell an analogy without understanding it. Skydivers dont HAVE to carry a backup any more than divers have to cary redundancy.

Please answer this question for me; if you are sky diving without a redundant chute, and your primary chute fails, what happens?
 
Please answer this question for me; if you are sky diving without a redundant chute, and your primary chute fails, what happens?

Define fails. As already mentioned by someone with more jumps than I - most....or better said as many "failures" can be and are fixed. The reserve shoot is LAST, LAST resort. You dont cut away from a fixable situation if you are trained well.

Answer this:

If you are seperated from your buddy in low vis (as it happens) and your primary reg fails in a 100 foot dive what happens?

Ive not seen research - but I would bet that Scuba Divers need a secondary air source SIGNIFICANTLY more than sky divers need a reserve chute. Both train and try to never need them - but still. This being said - why would one seem to accept the principle more readily than the other? Both can, but dont always, leave your life hanging.
 
With all due respect to both of you;

I think your both wrong with this... You both may have the best of intentions but IMHO, No one and I mean no one should jump out of a plane without a reserve as well as nobody will or should dive to 100' without a reserve be it buddy or pony...

I am not saying it does not happen but in either situation if or when a total malfunction does happen then the outcome will not be a positive one!!!

Again, just my opinion!

Originally Posted by halocline
Please answer this question for me; if you are sky diving without a redundant chute, and your primary chute fails, what happens?

Define fails. As already mentioned by someone with more jumps than I - most....or better said as many "failures" can be and are fixed. The reserve shoot is LAST, LAST resort. You dont cut away from a fixable situation if you are trained well.

Answer this:

If you are seperated from your buddy in low vis (as it happens) and your primary reg fails in a 100 foot dive what happens?

Ive not seen research - but I would bet that Scuba Divers need a secondary air source SIGNIFICANTLY more than sky divers need a reserve chute. Both train and try to never need them - but still. This being said - why would one seem to accept the principle more readily than the other? Both can, but dont always, leave your life hanging.
 
...Skydivers dont HAVE to carry a backup any more than divers have to cary redundancy. ... It is, however, not debated in the skydive world for those that choose redundancy (almost all - but not all).
Thanks. I think you got the gist of my query. I didn't mean to start this off on a tangent. I get somewhat amused how some folks feel that others have to justify their choices for a personal decision.
I personally use a 40cf pony, slung. It wasn't an attempt at a solution to an imaginary problem or inadequate skills or training. I have 3 reasons I purchased and train with it, none of which are anyones business but mine. I have plenty to learn and try to make every dive a learning experience.
I wonder how many drowned divers, whether through poor planning, inadequate training, diving beyond their training, or whatever; wished they had a pony slung?
:idk:
 
Thanks. I think you got the gist of my query. I didn't mean to start this off on a tangent. I get somewhat amused how some folks feel that others have to justify their choices for a personal decision.
I personally use a 40cf pony, slung. It wasn't an attempt at a solution to an imaginary problem or inadequate skills or training. I have 3 reasons I purchased and train with it, none of which are anyones business but mine. I have plenty to learn and try to make every dive a learning experience.
I wonder how many drowned divers, whether through poor planning, inadequate training, diving beyond their training, or whatever; wished they had a pony slung?
:idk:

So, you had to go with the LARGE size . . . :hm:


:rofl3: :kiss2:
 
Again you try to dispell an analogy without understanding it. Skydivers dont HAVE to carry a backup any more than divers have to cary redundancy. Many chute failures can be fixed and those that cannot be fixed should have been found or avoided during packing (like maintenance and testing of a reg). It is, however, not debated in the skydive world for those that choose redundancy (almost all - but not all). They cuold easily say - If you pack your chute correctly and test it - you would never need the back-up. Also - most skydivers NEVER deployed their second chute in 1000's of dives. But they still carry them. (BTW -in the interest of full disclosure - I am not a skydiver. I took lessons (10 years ago) and made it past the first few solo dives then realized I couldnt afford that sport at the time. By the time I could afford it, noone I knew was interested so other hobbies took over.


Anyway - maybe its a matter of PERSPECTIVE.

My "recreational" diving, in the NE might offer a different perspective than what you are used to. We have visibility that can go from 15 feet to zero in a matter of seconds. 30 feet is a banner day for us. I know any location, anywhere in the world can have this same effect - but when I dove the carribean, or even NC - that they consider bad conditions below - we celebrate in NJ.

The last dive of the year I could not see my waist - so thats less than 2 ft vis.

I have had several dives where we started with 10 feet, then out of nowhere - we had zero. Worked back to the anchor line and found the strobe 18 inches from my face before I saw its brilliant flashing.

I know this can happen anywhere - lets just say it seems to happen in NJ, and maybe the NE ( I dont know), more than many other place. We plan on hitting wrecks that offer better conditions and cleaner bottom - but still.

SO - buddy seperation happens. We stay closer when vis is lower - but if I am 7 feet from my buddy and without warning vis goes from 25 to zero - there is a real chance we might get seperated. We plan for this, we plan to avoid this, we have exit strategies - BUT - in the real world - it happens. ( this is also why on certain wrecks we will run seperate reels even when close) (BTW - its not always that someone silted or kicked up the bottom, although that happens, more than often it is that we have drastic current changes, mud movement, tidal flow and naturally less "blue water" vis.)

That being said - upon seperation, with a primary reg failure at 100 feet (however unlikely) - my redundant air source becomes my lifeline. Maybe thats why NJ charters require redundant air.

In 50 feet vis - with a buddy 7 feet away and a reg failure - a redundant air source might not be as needed - but in the conditions I have trained for - I feel It would be irresponsible to myself to go in without doubles and isolation capability - or - a pony.



Ignoring the peanut gallery let's just say "fails" means "stops working without notice".

Myself, on a dive like you describe:

(Lets say buddy seperation, lost line, zero visibility and current. All at 100fsw.)

I would search for the line while using my still working regulator . If I did not find it I would probably blow a bag, tie it off to the wreck, and head up that.

Put yourself in the same situation.

Total loss of air from the primary regulator (what some people would consider "failure")

You are lost, alone, slightly stressed and at 100fsw on a 30cft. tank.

What would you do from that point?
 
So, you had to go with the LARGE size . . . :hm:


:rofl3: :kiss2:
I'm a big breather! :D
I actually have future plans for that bottle. 1 of my 3 reasons.:wink:
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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