What makes a master diver?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Finally, someone who gets it.

Thanks

Well, this is a bit off-topic ... but I think most folks who have been put in this position before "get it" ... as do those who truly understand the concept of "duty of care".

There's a lot of misinformation that gets perpetuated on boards like this one. One of the common misconceptions is that a DM or Instructor who's diving for fun somehow has a responsibility for all the non-pro divers on the boat. That is simply not the case ... nor is it the case that showing a different card somehow changes the duty of care that one might assume. As John Prine would put it, "you are what you are and you ain't what you ain't".

When I am on vacation, I will show my instructor card ... because I want the captain and crew to understand the limits of my training, and to know what resources are available to them if an emergency should call on them to ask for assistance.

Short of their asking, and my accepting, a duty of care ... as a paying customer I have no more obligation to the other divers on board than they have to each other. The duty of care I owe them is simply this ... that if an accident should occur, I am obligated to respond within the limits of my training, and to the best of my ability, until I am relieved by someone of higher authority or equal/higher training. In this case, that would amount to someone working the boat (captain or crew) or a medical professional.

Other than an emergency situation, I have no duty of care to anyone on the boat. In this case, there was no emergency ... there were some irresponsible actions on the part of the crew, and some acts of ignorance on the part of a diver. No paying customer on the boat ... whatever their professional capacity happens to be ... is obligated to assume responsibility for those actions. In fact, doing so assumes a liability that you otherwise would not have.

Why would any dive professional want to accept that kind of liability? If a boat crew wants me to assume the role of dive guide, they can damn well pay me for doing so. Short of that, they simply have no right to expect it of me.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

Well, this is a bit off-topic ... but I think most folks who have been put in this position before "get it" ... as do those who truly understand the concept of "duty of care"...

What this stems from, I suspect, is a decision (or maybe an urban legend about a decision) concerning a successful suit brought against an individual who was a life guard, was wearing orange life guard trunks but was not on duty (or even at a beach they had ever worked). They failed to respond to an emergency ... and you can write the rest of the tail.

 

[namabiru]

Why would you need a recommendation from a dock?

I wish our docks could talk.
I bet some would have interesting stories to tell.

 

[Guba]

Mike, I simply can't relate well to what you're saying, though I know you are saying it in good faith. Even now after rubbing shoulders with a lot of very excellent professional divers with credentials out the wazoo, I look back at the training I received and I'm still of the opinion that it was quite good. Were there some gaps? Not many that I can find but I'm sure there werre some, yet none in the areas I consider crucial (buoyancy, planning, safety, navigation, emergencies, basic skills, etc...).
The first rescue I had to perform in water was just after I took AOW, and the skills I needed were firmly in place, having been reviewed both in my OW and AOW classes. During AOW, we didn't just "kneel at 60 feet longer"...we did tables problems at 90 feet while hovering (just to show the effects of being narced). I could go on and on. And it wasn't just the teaching of a single good instructor. I had three different instructors, from three different LDS's, and I was impressed with every one of them. After all this time, I still am. I simply find it hard to relate to the notion that so many divers are being trained inadequately, because that has not been my experience. If that has been the experience of others, then I too decry and protest the situation. It simply is out of my range of observation, though.

 

[Thalassamania]

Perhaps things are better in North Central Texas than elsewhere?

 

[diveasr]

if you want to do a real master diver course. look at the YMCA's program. there course is much like doing a divemaster where you get quized on physics, physiology, medicine along with skill evaluations. plus dont forget the swim test. i have dove eith some great PADI guys and gals. anyway PADI has a specialty card for that mask designed by NASA. and if using that mask in any way makes you a master diver it is beyond me. you should have a lot of dives in a lot of different enviroments, deep dives, and night dives before trying for this cert. look at it like the navy, you dont get to be a Navy Master Diver if you dont get in the water and dive, nor are they getting it 2 years after they become divers. it takesw them time and they have to show that they are proficient with alot of things.

hey the ymca master program is nothing more than at least 25 dives w instructor, some deep dives and some theory

edit
to clarify, you dont need any dives other than the 3ow, 2ow2, 5aow, 5saow, 10gmd

so you can do them all together and come out as a msd with 25 dives, all supervised

 

[JeffG]

<snip>
During AOW, we didn't just "kneel at 60 feet longer"...we did tables problems at 90 feet while hovering.

<snip>

I simply find it hard to relate to the notion that so many divers are being trained inadequately, because that has not been my experience. If that has been the experience of others, then I too decry and protest the situation. It simply is out of my range of observation, though.

Its all I have ever seen.

From Roatan, where DM's lined people up on their knee's to show off their fin pivot and reg recovery skills, to Alberta lakes where instructors have their students kneel in the muck, every diver holding a rope so that the instructor can find the next one in line to do a skill.

My AOW deep dive was on the HCMS Mackenzie, kneeling on the deck doing a math problem.

 

[Thalassamania]

hey the ymca master program is nothing more than at least 25 dives w instructor, some deep dives and some theory

edit
to clarify, you dont need any dives other than the 3ow, 2ow2, 5aow, 5saow, 10gmd

so you can do them all together and come out as a msd with 25 dives, all supervised

Big difference:

YMCA: Some Theory

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, I simply can't relate well to what you're saying, though I know you are saying it in good faith. Even now after rubbing shoulders with a lot of very excellent professional divers with credentials out the wazoo, I look back at the training I received and I'm still of the opinion that it was quite good. Were there some gaps? Not many that I can find but I'm sure there werre some, yet none in the areas I consider crucial (buoyancy, planning, safety, navigation, emergencies, basic skills, etc...).
The first rescue I had to perform in water was just after I took AOW, and the skills I needed were firmly in place, having been reviewed both in my OW and AOW classes. During AOW, we didn't just "kneel at 60 feet longer"...we did tables problems at 90 feet while hovering (just to show the effects of being narced). I could go on and on. And it wasn't just the teaching of a single good instructor. I had three different instructors, from three different LDS's, and I was impressed with every one of them. After all this time, I still am. I simply find it hard to relate to the notion that so many divers are being trained inadequately, because that has not been my experience. If that has been the experience of others, then I too decry and protest the situation. It simply is out of my range of observation, though.

I understand and you may very well have received good instruction. There are certainly good instructors out there. With few acceptions, the worst classes I've seen did meet standards. By the agencies definition, they were good classes so I think it's important to look at the standards. When I say that an AOW course is kneeling at 60 ft instead of 20 ft, I'm refering to what is required. It is what I most often see but if it was a standards violation, I could fix it with a phone call. To put it within your range of observation, get a copy of the standards and study it. While you're reading it, ask yourself what a class would look like if the instructor followed standards to the letter...no more and no less. Many do just that. What are the minimums?


I have to add, that I don't think I've ever seen an AOW class hovering during the "timed task" and standards sure don't require it. I think that if you look around, you'll see that it isn't very common. I think it's good but I don't think you'll see it very often.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Its all I have ever seen.

From Roatan, where DM's lined people up on their knee's to show off their fin pivot and reg recovery skills, to Alberta lakes where instructors have their students kneel in the muck, every diver holding a rope so that the instructor can find the next one in line to do a skill.

My AOW deep dive was on the HCMS Mackenzie, kneeling on the deck doing a math problem.

My AOW deep dive was at White Star Quarry in Ohio down in the foundation. I was hovering (vertical but hovering) and the instructor made me get on the bottom. We didn't kneel though, we stood up.

I thought maybe that was an "advanced" thing...new divers kneel and advanced divers stand. LOL