What makes a master diver?

[daniel f aleman]

Geez guys, haven't you ever looked at a university's curriculum - hundreds of courses; continuous education, it's a tried a true method for many...

And remember Thal and Gary, you two are looking at the subject of diving education through experienced eyes with decades of real experience - think about how a scuba newbie looks at it, daunting at the least.

 

[Thalassamania]

But in the old days you were expected to mentor (and be mentored).

 

[Tigerman]

Ok, I just had a moment of clarity here, or just a brain fart, whichever you choose..
This is just a general observation..

People "complain" about all the crappy 4 resort dives a year in hot water divers with no other experience.
Let take that diver, who has been certified for lets say 10 years, having 40 dives, all of them was in the ~30c water in cozumel or wherever..
Now onto the same boat comes Diver X who has been certified for 2 years, has done 100 dives, ow, aow, rescue and gotten his Master Diver cert.

Ok, no doubt that none of the two is by overall "masters of diving", but Id say that Diver X still is FAR ahead of the "resort diver"? Atleast Diver X has some variety in his diving and not just jumping off the boat, following the current in the 30c water and submerging when the DM tell him to, maybe knocking down half a coral reef on his own in the process..

Maybe its not the cert names thats totally lost afterall, maybe its our context?
Master diver might not be a good name, but at the same time, its just a name of the highest non-professional recreational dive training?

 

[Thalassamania]

Master diver might not be a good name, but at the same time, its just a name of the highest non-professional recreational dive training?

Agreed, the problem is, and the laugh comes from the fact that this "highest" level of training only involves actual training with one of the agencies, in all the others it's just a recognition patch with no associated course work. Should this highest level or recognition be offered up at 50 dives because someone took 5 specialty courses ... sounds more like a "frequent trainee" club.

 

[45yrold_newbie]

What I'm saying is everyone knows how much more demanding military training is than civilian training.

Again not diminishing your skill or training ; but just how is everyone supposed to know unless they have first hand experience or a reference of some sort?

 

[Gary D.]

Geez guys, haven't you ever looked at a university's curriculum - hundreds of courses; continuous education, it's a tried a true method for many...

And remember Thal and Gary, you two are looking at the subject of diving education through experienced eyes with decades of real experience - think about how a scuba newbie looks at it, daunting at the least.

That isn’t what I talking about. I’m for and have to go through continuing education and recertification every three years plus a PT test every 6 months to keep my current diving status. What other rec divers HAVE to or even try to do that?

But what irritates me is when it was only two cards military cards were accepted just like any other card. But when they started busting it up into dozens of individual categories the military cards are no longer accepted. Hummmm, we were good enough once. Oh, I almost forgot. I can be good enough again if I pay for the privilidge.

Everybody wants to read the Navy Diving Manual and dive like the military divers that were trained by that manual. But then when they run into a military diver there are treated like they are not good enough to dive with them unless they PAY for the class and have that “C” card.

Stop and think where a lot of today’s diving procedures and techniques came from. From the guys that hold the cards that aren’t accepted, that’s where.

Gary D.

 

[Tigerman]

Seriously. Its not a matter of your training not "being good enough", its a matter of the average dive op not having a clue what your training covers, alas his way of covering his *** is not accepting your card..

 

[fisheyeview]

What I'm saying is everyone knows how much more demanding military training is than civilian training.

Meeting someone for the first time for a dive I would trust a military diver much more than any recreational certified diver. I know the quality of training they went through. They are trained by a team of instructors not just one. People are either proficient in the skills or they are out. They don’t get a chance to improve them later if you’re not proficient to begin with.


Second Class Diver
Second Class Divers are trained in SCUBA, Surface Supplied (Air/Mixed Gas), and Closed Circuit diving rigs to perform submarine lockouts, underwater maintenance, propeller changes, hull repair on ships and submarines, and search and salvage operations in depths up to 300 feet. They are trained in chamber operations and the use of munitions plus mechanical and chemical cutting equipment for salvage, battle damage repair, and underwater construction projects.
First Class Diver
First Class Divers perform planning for SCUBA, Surface Supplied (Air/Mixed Gas), Closed Circuit, and saturation diving operations on submarine lock-outs, underwater maintenance, propeller changes, hull repair on ships and submarines, and search and salvage operations in depths up to 1,000 feet. They perform and supervise chamber operations and the use of munitions plus mechanical and chemical cutting equipment for salvage, battle damage repair, and underwater construction projects.
Master Diver
The military’s highest qualified diver, the Master Diver manages dive programs for Navy and Marine Corps commands. As subject matter expert in diving, salvage, and underwater ship repair, the Master Diver works directly for Commanding Officers in formulating and executing dive programs and operations, executes salvage plans for Engineering Officers during salvage operations, and controls underwater repair of Naval vessels.

The Schools
After completion of Recruit Training or acceptance in the Navy Diver program from the Fleet, individuals will go to Naval Training Command, Great Lakes, for Diver Preparation Course (32 training days, including 20 days of Basic Electrical and Engineering courses). Upon completion of the training, candidates will go to NDSTC Panama City, Fla., for Second Class Dive School, which is 70 training days long. The NDSTC is divided into Fleet and specialized sections. Regardless of their section, all candidates are taught:
• Basic gas laws as they relate to diving
• Diving medicine
• Recompression chamber operations
• Dive planning
• Diving physics
• Salvage operations
• Surface-supplied diving systems
• Use of all Diving apparatus: Open- and Closed-Circuit rigs
• Underwater mechanics and tools, and underwater cutting and welding

Gary,

I agree with you, to a degree, that military divers are usually better divers than recreational divers. I agree that Navy divers, including SEALS, fit that catagory. However, I have met others that I would not dive with.

Several years ago I had the plessure of crewing a dive boat in the Keys that had been chartered by the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team. They have to do a certain number of dives a year, under the supervision of an instructor, to stay a member of the HRT.

There were 40 of them staying down there. They were split up in two groups of 20 divers. Half would go out in the morning, and the other half would go out in the afternoon. I believe they dove with us for 4 days.

The instructors, were all members of the HRT. They were also all ex SEALS. Those guys were unbelievable in the water. The rest of the team was made up of a mix of former Rangers, Green Bennies, and Marine Force Recon guys. As special forces people, all of them had been trained in military diving by their respective branches of service. Except for the SEALS, I would not have asked most of them to rescue my dog in my bath tub.

We had 6' - 8' seas the entire time they were down. The SEALS loved it, while most of the rest survived it. Remember that these are the elite of the FBI. All ex special forces.

It is obvious that the SEALS would excell in this kind of environment as they are specially trained to live in it. The otehr members were trained by the military, but no where near the extent that the SEALS were.

I also agree that 50 dives and a credit card do not make you a Master Diver. Just as I feel that Nemrod is wrong in his blanket statements about agencies. Everyone has to start somewhere in diving. The certification agencies just provide that starting place. Nemrod, you had to start with a certification from some agency, or did you start your own agency when you started out? Has PADI, and most other agencies, watered down the certification classes to get more people certified. I believe they have. But, these certifications are just a starting point for some. For some it will be as far as they go. Fine.

Just as the state requires you to take a written test and a road test before you get your drivers license. Once you have a drivers license does not make you an Indy or NASCAR driver. You drive, and drive, and drive to get experience to become a better driver. As a driver you are constantly learning more each time we get behind the wheel of a car.

Most new drivers (in Florida they are usually 16 years old) think they are great drivers, when in reality they are not. That is why insurance companies rate them as a higher risk. But guess what. They still can drive if their parents (or they) can afford the insurance. (Actually, in South Florida, I beleive 1 in 4 drivers does not have insurance.)

I am not ashamed to say that I am a PADI certified diver. What is to be ashamed of that? I started in 1977 with my PADI Basic Diver. I then went on to get my Open Water. Later I got my Advanced, and then my Divemaster. Notice that I did not list Rescue. Rescue used to be a part of the Divemaster class when I took it.

I don't know how many specialty certifications I have, but I could more than qualify to get my PADI Master Diver card. I just choose not to get it because it is just a card. Does that card make someone a Master at diving. No. But, it is just a title that has been given to the card.

I got my Divemaster because I like working on the dive boats, and I love working with classes. I got the specialties because I like to experience new things. I am not into technical diving (except for nitrox) as I have no desire to go deeper and deeper, or to explore caves. It's not my thing.

 

[Tigerman]

fisheyeview: and why would you even want a master diver card if youre dive master? DM is a higher cert level anyways?

 

[Paco II]

Does anyone know the history of the Master Diver rating (for any agency)? Has it been around since the beginning of scuba certifications, or is it a relatively new rating?

(I am not referring to Navy Master Diver or similar, just the scuba certification agency rating)