What is the deepest you can do an OOA?

[mdb]

It's not rocket science....

There are two ways to run out of gas...
1) you got stupid and just ran out...that should never happen to anyone

2) You had an equipment related problem, freeflow, burst disk, hose bursts, etc, which gives you at least a minute or two to handle the problem...during which time you either switch to your redundant gas or to your buddy's gas..

Soggy: There are multiple ways to run out of air/gas. Maybe "it should never happen to anyone", but it does. Your great buddy/team member may be unable/unwilling to help. Sometimes a glib "team member' turns to a jelly roll when a real emergency occurs. Be prepared to help yourself.

 

[Soggy]

Soggy: There are multiple ways to run out of air/gas.

Please add to my list, then. What ways can you run out of gas besides not paying attention or having an equipment failure?

I never said one shouldn't be self sufficient. In fact, I have repeatedly stressed it.

 

[gangrel441]

and they are?

Something other than these?

Solo diving with a simultaneous catastrophic failure on every breathing bottle they have or a brain fart.

One is highly unlikely, the other can be fixed by paying attention.

Solo, O-ring fails on primary 1st stage. Switch to redundant. LP hose blows on redundant.

Already stated this example earlier. Not saying you should just figure on ending each dive with a CESA, but I believe in being prepared for redundant systems to fail, just like primaries.

Last year, I was on a liveaboard with a large number of VERY experienced and capable divers. Within the same dive day, one blew a HP hose, and another blew a LP. These were not the types that show up with poorly maintained gear. The guy who blew the HP had replacement hoses in BOTH instances. Neither situation resulted in a CESA, as the HP blew as he was finishing the dive, and the LP only required thumbing the dive and doing the safety stop on a buddy's alternate. Still, had both of these instances happened at depth on the same dive within a buddy pair, a CESA may have been necessary.

 

[fishb0y]

How about making sure you dont have to make one?

This thread has become useless... I find it unfortunate that people can be so closed minded to the fact that accidents can and do happen... even if you have a buddy in close proximity. A CESA is another tool in your toolbox. My out of air incident came when I got seperated from my buddy at 140ft... I was able to get another breath out of my reg at 90ft followed by my stage bottle at 70ft. Sure I screwed up in other places in my dive, but I took alot of lessons learned out of that dive.

Theres a few things youll learn about in the deep dive courses you can do to prevent it

You know what buddy... as soon as you finish your PADI Deep Class, come talk to me and I'll talk to you about deep dives.

 

[Gary D.]

OOA != CESA
CESA is NOT safe, as you claim it to be in the last sentence
That YOU are OOA for whatever reason DONT mean your buddy is.
You can always carry a pony bottle that can take you to the surface safely, for example..

Let me add a bit to your post.

I don’t know who gave them this CESA name but they used to be called “Free” and “Buoyant” Assents.

CESA=They are safe but only as safe as the person who understands the process and executes it properly.

In the real world when things go to crap it doesn’t happen like in the class. Signaling is rare, the gentle reg. change over is not going to be like passing a crystal glass back and forth. It can be a very rapid somewhat violent action. Violent enough that it could and often does put both divers in danger.

Then there is the cure all pony or second air source of some type. It has already been said but the reserve system no matter what it is can fail. Saying that the pony bottle WILL get you to the surface is not the best statement to make. What the pony does is increase your chances of getting to the surface it in no way guarantees it.

People keep preaching safety this and safety that but they eliminate one sure way to get to the surface from training. Why? Maybe it’s because a lot of divers can’t grasp and become proficient in what they are being taught now. Maybe they think it will increase pony sales. Who knows but that is an important skill to know.

They have drummed the safety stop so deep into people’s heads that they think if they miss it they are bent or dead. There have even bee posts where they think they have to do a safety stop during a CESA. That is sad.

A while back we could not get through to a guy that thought a 15’ safety stop was needed on every dive. Even on a 10’ dive he said you needed to do a 15’ safety stop. That is just about the ultimate in some one getting the worst possible training.

Not all that many years ago both Free and Buoyant Assents were common place in OW classes. Plain and simple they need to be brought back into the classes.

Gary D.

 

[ShallowDiverDave]

I was trained OW a couple months back. I hired a private instructor and he had me perform an air-free assent from 20 ft. I plan on doing very shallow solo dives in the future, and this undoubtedly helps provide me with the confidence (to stay calm) that if somehow both my primary and redundant fail, I still have a chance of surviving.

 

[Bill51]

Let whoever on this board has never screwed up and never will screw up be the first to start flaming me. I have had more than my share of OOA experiences over the past 45 years (so call me an F – up) and I hope I never have another one, but even more important I hope that if I do I’ll be as comfortable with it as the ones before.

My WWII Navy diver instructor back in 1961, was big on emergency ascents – as well as running a 30 day open water course that resembled boot camp – and I’m glad he did. We practiced out of air ascents from 30-40’ in his class, so the first time I came up short of air at 60’ it was pretty much a none event. My worst event happened in 1965, on an old single stage double hose at a little past 130’ in a 7mm wetsuit and no BC. I had apparently bumped down the J Valve and didn’t notice it and we were working much harder than usual so I assumed that I was just over breathing the old regulator – until I went to inhale and felt like I was trying to collapse that big corrugated hose. My buddy was about 15’ away and 10’ below me at the time and I decided heading up was a better option than trying to catch up to him and deal with buddy breathing off double hoses. As I started up I flashed my light across my buddy a couple times to try and get his attention so he’d know I was leaving, and I started exhaling just like in training. I did manage to get a little more air out of the regulator about half way up, and I got half a breath out of my horse collar too, so I guess I can’t say I was totally out of air – but it was close enough for one day. One thing I was taught (right or wrong) was for deep ascents to slow down to a near stop about 1 minute into the ascent and swallow, which did kill the slight CO2 buildup urge to breath and greatly reduced the anxiety of the ascent. I don’t know the exact length of time it took me to surface but judging from that one-minute stop I’d say I never exceeded 40-50 fpm during the ascent. I was young enough and dumb enough at the time to do another 70’ dive a couple hours later with no ill effects.

Since then I’ve had one more unexpected OOA at about 70’ and done a number of them intentionally from 50’ just for giggles. The last one I did was to see how slow I could comfortably keep my ascent and according to my computer I never exceeded 40 fpm and most of the time I was able to maintain 30 fpm or less without any major effort or desire to breath. One thing I do know is that feeling comfortable being able to do a CESA from 30-40’ goes a long way to reducing overall anxiety in a lot of divers once they realize they can survive a worst case scenario. I’m sure some people will misuse the training and take extra risks, but most understand that facing a CESA unexpectedly is not a great way to end a dive – and it should result in ending your diving for the day and missing out on the fun stuff others get to see later in the day.

As for less experienced divers surviving a CESA, my neighbor who only has 35 dives since he started diving 2 years ago ran out at 88’ on a fishing trip a couple months ago. While he is an ex-Coastie who is pretty comfortable in the water he didn’t think it was that big a deal but he did go out and buy a Spare Air to carry with him fishing. We downloaded his computer after his ascent and at no time did he exceed 40 fpm while dragging up a huge bag of fish – and shooting himself in the fin since he forgot to flip the safety on as he started up. He did look pretty funny with a spear stuck through his fin and trying to get the fin off to get on the boat with the line wrapped around him.

My attitude about CESA practice is about the same as thinking the FAA screwed up when they stopped requiring commercial pilots to do spins. A CESA is what you do when everything goes wrong and you need the confidence to maintain your cool, just as a spin is what happens when a stall goes wrong and no one should ever be in a position they’re surprised. I’m sure there are divers who have died with a pony bottle because they panicked trying to get to it, so the key to safety is the diver, his abilities, his training, and his attitude – not the equipment. Without proper training I’m sure a pony or doubles could be more dangerous than a CESA for a diver who was already task loaded beyond their comfort level and the pony became one more thing to worry about rather than use.

Fighter pilot’s prayer, “Lord I don’t care if I die, but just don’t let me f-up.

 

[Soggy]

Solo, O-ring fails on primary 1st stage. Switch to redundant. LP hose blows on redundant.

Already stated this example earlier. Not saying you should just figure on ending each dive with a CESA, but I believe in being prepared for redundant systems to fail, just like primaries.

Did the aliens invade at the same time?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Noone seems to mention that the metabolic rate of the diver at the time of the OOA is a huge issue. It is easy to simply "float up" from 60 feet and not breath for 45 seconds if you are bouyant, relaxed and your heart rate is at a resting pace. I did it as part of the basic PADI course when I was 13, in 40 degree water and was terrified, but I did it. But what if you are tired, cold, scared? Your heart rate will be much higher and the consumption of oxygen will be much, much higher. Plus the diver may already have accrued somewhat of an oxygen debt before the incident.

Practicing an OOA ascent while starting with full lungs is unrealistic. You aren't gonna know you are outta air until you can't inhale..so start out with no air in your lungs and practice the CESA after swimming hard for a few minutes.. think the magic expanding air will make you feel wonderful?

The CESA is not a viable option for most sport divers below about 60 feet, MAX

 

[Bill51]

The CESA is not a viable option for most sport divers below about 60 feet, MAX

Training many sport divers in the proper use of pony bottles or doubles and getting them to go through the hassle of safely using them is not always viable either so maybe we should not allow sport divers past 60’. Some divers at some times enjoy a dive that resembles a paramilitary operation with rigid plans, procedures, and equipment standards, but that is a minority of the divers we need to teach, so giving them the best training we can in the time they give us to train them is the best we can hope for. Part of that training should be in teaching them how to set realistic personal limits on their dives based on their training, recent experience, condition, available equipment, and risk acceptance.