What is "basic scuba"?

[kanonfodr]

Hmm...horizontal trim and neutral bouyancy, right out of open water?? Me?? Kinda...sometimes...occasionally. Out of AOW?? Same Answer. Right out of Essentials?? Still needs work but better.

Non-silting kicks: Never even thought of them until I dove Lake Travis for the first time this summer. All the places I had dived in Hawaii didn't have silt, I could dig my fins into the sand, kick it up into the water, and in about 30 seconds we would be all clear again. That wasn't an issue for me. Now that I've taken Essentials: I can now not completely doom whoever is diving behind us. But can I stay in place in a current? Kinda...it depends.

I've been taught, had the standards expected of me, and I managed to achieve those standards. But I still have the opportunity to say Shag It, don my split fins, and fly the computer on a dive until I've gone way past Rock Bottom without a clue of where my buddy is. Folks can be trained, but it's up to them to use those skills to protect themselves and the environment.

It's a harder right to actually use a helicopter or back kick, or even do a buddy bump than to just flail your arms and eventually get how you want to be. That hard right I believe is what seperates good, knowledgeable divers from the resort divers that have to be babied every fin kick.

Peace,
Greg

 

[mudhole]

Oh, I couldn't do this when I finished my OW class . . . but I've said publicly, and will repeat, that I don't think I should have been PASSED out of my open water class!

Actually, by the time I had about 25 dives or so, I could stay quite close to the bottom and not silt out anything. Bob had taught me a modified flutter kick, which wasn't hard to learn at all, and even in split fins, it kept the bottom undisturbed. I couldn't sit still, though. I'll admit it took some time, and learning to balance my equipment, before I mastered that.

Wow, you really push us all into thinking about what we are doing! Your thinking you should not have passed open water. . . would have deprived the world of diving from the Borg Princess, assimilating us all. . . into a smarter dive observer. That you progressed and not mastered a skill, rewards us old farts that have tried to encourage new students into diving more and learning from the dives. More than paying instructors for knowledge. I'm bad. . . some instructors, I'd pay even now. But A very high percentage of dive instructors, are not good divers.

The world of diving is full of divers that want to progress from the first dives to instructors. . . like the books can make you a diver. Also, it's not the age or years of diving that guarantees a good instructor. If the motive for instructing is money, then the outcome won't be good. If, the motive is to draw more good people into diving 20 or 30 years, it will take more time and effort than profitable.

TS&M, you're not an average diver, you are a great help on this board. . . but your progress, as a diver is typical. The survival as a diver for the first 25 dives, gave you the skills to enjoy diving, and progress to new interests. You've moved into advanced levels, training to dive in caves. . . you won't find as many fish, as I like to find in open water, but you're probably more interested in finding supper in a grocery store. I like to feed new divers fish they can't find in any grocery stores. Putting fish on the table is one benefit to keep divers active, a little longer.

Keep writing, keep pushing our thinking. . . and keep diving!

 

[Garth]

I agree that instructing for money will not make you rich. But I will tell you my life's plan anyway:

I am applying for an anesthesia school right now after working as a nurse in a Trauma ICU but.....

if I win the lottery.... i will switch gears and focus solely on diving. Gotta pay the bills somehow.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Wow, you really push us all into thinking about what we are doing! Your thinking you should not have passed open water. . . would have deprived the world of diving from the Borg Princess, assimilating us all. . . into a smarter dive observer. That you progressed and not mastered a skill, rewards us old farts that have tried to encourage new students into diving more and learning from the dives. More than paying instructors for knowledge. I'm bad. . . some instructors, I'd pay even now. But A very high percentage of dive instructors, are not good divers.

The world of diving is full of divers that want to progress from the first dives to instructors. . . like the books can make you a diver. Also, it's not the age or years of diving that guarantees a good instructor. If the motive for instructing is money, then the outcome won't be good. If, the motive is to draw more good people into diving 20 or 30 years, it will take more time and effort than profitable.

TS&M, you're not an average diver, you are a great help on this board. . . but your progress, as a diver is typical. The survival as a diver for the first 25 dives, gave you the skills to enjoy diving, and progress to new interests. You've moved into advanced levels, training to dive in caves. . . you won't find as many fish, as I like to find in open water, but you're probably more interested in finding supper in a grocery store. I like to feed new divers fish they can't find in any grocery stores. Putting fish on the table is one benefit to keep divers active, a little longer.

Keep writing, keep pushing our thinking. . . and keep diving!

I agree with every word you say here!

It is easy to sit back with the benefit of experience and say the skill level of divers fresh out of OW is lacking. It is easy to talk about how all divers should take courses to increase their skill and knowledge. The reality is that the ideal is seldom achievable!

I think what IS vital is that we turn divers out of the basic courses with a passion for diving, a thirst for more knowledge/skill and the ability to be safe within the parameters of the dives they will be performing.


There are instructors with higher standards than the norm. We have to assume they are turning out higher quality students as they claim and that is wonderful. The problem is the number of people who have access to these gems is too low. If we held every diver back until they could afford the time and money to get into one of these instructors courses would we have enough divers in the water to support the industry?

Without divers the equipment/development/research/dive destinations we all enjoy would not be financially viable. Without divers who would inspire the new generation of divers. Who would see and report and become advocates for the underwater environment?

TSandM is one of SB's greatest assets and has expanded the minds of so many of us. Would she have continued diving had she failed her OW I think there are a lot of divers who may have just scraped through their OW but developed skills and knowledge that has inspired others and probably even saved lives!

I am a Realistic Idealist.... I dream of what should be but accept what is and keep trying to nudge things towards the highest achievable goal. IMHO the first step towards the Ideal is not necessarily with OW courses but with the Instructor's courses. Too many divers are qualifying as Instructors who do not have these key skills themselves! If they can not lead by example and demonstrate bouyancy, trim, fin kicks and respect for the environment they can not turn out competent students!

 

[TSandM]

Well, I'll tell you . . . had my open water instructors sat down with me and said, "You know, you just aren't quite ready to be cut loose, we think you could use a little more pool time and couple more open water dives," I would have gratefully replied, "Let's get it scheduled." I'm not a stupid woman, and I knew darned well that I was a horrible diver. That's why I immediately signed up for AOW, hoping that, during that class, I'd get better. The problem was that nobody addressed the things that were bad during AOW, either.

It wasn't until Bob watched me desperately try to descend, and then eventually do it by falling on my back, rolling over, fin pivoting and then trying to go diving, that somebody actually started at ground zero and said, "Here are some ideas on how to manage a descent better." And we went from there. He did more for my diving in about three dives than my instructors had done in what was about 15 at that point (OW, AOW, and a couple of specialties, INCLUDING peak performance buoyancy . . . )

 

[RJP]

TSandM is one of SB's greatest assets and has expanded the minds of so many of us. Would she have continued diving had she failed her OW I think there are a lot of divers who may have just scraped through their OW but developed skills and knowledge that has inspired others and probably even saved lives!

No one is suggesting that instructors should have higher standards/expectations in order to FAIL more divers. Rather, that with higher (appropriate?) expectations the same number of divers could be certified but the would be BETTER divers right off the block. There is no need for anyone to "just scrape through" their OW class. That's what you get when people who "dream of what should be, but accept what is." That's not being a Realistic Idealist (Could there BE a greater oxymoron?) but rather that's simply being a Defeatist.

Imagine how many more TSandM's there would be in the world...if more instructors were like Jim Lapenta and others who do not "dream of what should be, but accept what is" but instead actually take "what should be" and simply go ahead and make that the "what is" in their world.

This approach seems to work for every person who tries it!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Well, I'll tell you . . . had my open water instructors sat down with me and said, "You know, you just aren't quite ready to be cut loose, we think you could use a little more pool time and couple more open water dives," I would have gratefully replied, "Let's get it scheduled." I'm not a stupid woman, and I knew darned well that I was a horrible diver. That's why I immediately signed up for AOW, hoping that, during that class, I'd get better. The problem was that nobody addressed the things that were bad during AOW, either.

It wasn't until Bob watched me desperately try to descend, and then eventually do it by falling on my back, rolling over, fin pivoting and then trying to go diving, that somebody actually started at ground zero and said, "Here are some ideas on how to manage a descent better." And we went from there. He did more for my diving in about three dives than my instructors had done in what was about 15 at that point (OW, AOW, and a couple of specialties, INCLUDING peak performancehink buoyancy . . . )

If you were really that unskilled, why do you think the instructors didn't get you the individualized instruction that you needed? Obviously you were motivated and able to pay for appropriate remediation?

I myself learned most all I know from informal help from experienced divers rather than courses.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

No one is suggesting that instructors should have higher standards/expectations in order to FAIL more divers. Rather, that with higher (appropriate?) expectations the same number of divers could be certified but the would be BETTER divers right off the block. There is no need for anyone to "just scrape through" their OW class. That's what you get when people who "dream of what should be, but accept what is." That's not being a Realistic Idealist (Could there BE a greater oxymoron?) but rather that's simply being a Defeatist.

Imagine how many more TSandM's there would be in the world...if more instructors were like Jim Lapenta and others who do not "dream of what should be, but accept what is" but instead actually take "what should be" and simply go ahead and make that the "what is" in their world.

This approach seems to work for every person who tries it!

I am a Realistic Idealist.... I dream of what should be but accept what is and keep trying to nudge things towards the highest achievable goal. IMHO the first step towards the Ideal is not necessarily with OW courses but with the Instructor's courses. Too many divers are qualifying as Instructors who do not have these key skills themselves! If they can not lead by example and demonstrate bouyancy, trim, fin kicks and respect for the environment they can not turn out competent students!

I guess I haven't explained myself very well here. What I was trying to say is I am REALISTIC enough to recognize what is and that we have to keep working towards higher goals. It will not change overnight but if enough people keep nudging and pushing and trying we will achieve the goals we are working towards. I don't see that position as any different from what TSandM. JimLap and others are doing. They are Realistic enough to see the problems and working to change the situation in their own ways

I did not read it that people want to FAIL students in OW but to turn out divers with a higher skill level. The truth is that if you have a standard requirement and the student meets that minimum standard you have to either pass them or chance being accused of discrimination. That is the case in the industry where I instruct and those standards are set nationally. Some people would call that "scraping through" Do I think that is a good thing? of course not but if I fail one of my students who performs the necessary skill at minimum standard required during the assessment I would certainly be fired and probably be sued.

I often spend my own break times, lunch and come in early to help students because I want to turn out the best quality people I can in my field. I want to give my students the best chance of being confident and competent. Most of the people appreciate my effort but I have been accused by some of picking on them and discrimination because I asked them to do this additional work:shocked2:

What I am suggesting is that Instructors Courses should have higher standards and fail rates. The INSTRUCTOR needs to be able to demonstrate the skills they are expected to teach and make them seem effortless! If someone is given an Instructor's certificate who does not have effortless bouyancy control for instance how can they appraise their students? I have seen instructors creating silt trails... trashing creatures with poor SA.

No I am not blaming the instructors for everything.. there are many good ones but there are too many out there who still don't know what they don't know and they are passing it on! What I am suggesting supports what Jim and others are doing... start fixing the problem at the top.. you have to demand more from the Instructor before you can demand it of the students!

 

[bowlofpetunias]

If you were really that unskilled, why do you think the instructors didn't get you the individualized instruction that you needed? Obviously you were motivated and able to pay for appropriate remediation?

I myself learned most all I know from informal help from experienced divers rather than courses.

Interesting.. thought... I was fortunate enough to have a "reasonable" probably not GREAT instructor but a Great opportunity to dive with experience buddies. I learned more from mimicking my dive buddies and asking them heaps of questions than I did on course!

 

[TSandM]

Well, DD, I think my passing had to do with two things: The senior instructor who ran my OW class was (and I suspect still is) quite burnt out on teaching. And I can see, from my husband's limited experience this year, that eventually one would get quite tired of putting in unpaid extra work to remediate students. And the instructor who actually signed off on my OW cert was signing his very first, and I think may not have had any realistic idea of what an OW diver should have been able to do.

I believe, from watching Peter's classes this year, that IF you have a good mental picture of what you want your graduating OW student to be able to do, and IF you put that student into equipment that fits reasonably well, and IF you teach with the end in mind, and IF you are willing to put in a little extra time where it's needed, you can accomplish a lot, even with pretty untalented people.

That's a lot of Ifs.