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What is a "Vintage Double Hose Regulator"?

Discussion in 'Vintage Equipment Diving' started by John C. Ratliff, Jul 13, 2015.

  1. John C. Ratliff

    John C. Ratliff Instructor, Scuba

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    There has been a discussion on a different thread about whether a double hose regulator is "vintage" or "modern," based on whether it has low pressure and high pressure ports (modern configuration) or lacks that ability. I wanted to show that these features have been available for many years on different double hose regulators. Here are a couple of examples:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    This is a Sportsways Hydro Twin regulator, which featured both low pressure and high pressure ports. This regulator was available in the 1960s. So those were produced early, but are still considered "vintage" regulators.

    Here is my Trieste II regulator, which you will note has a MR-12 octopus on it, SPG and a LP hose for my inflator. I bought it new in the 1970s, and have been using it ever since. It is highly modified, and I would put it up against any double hose considered "modern" today for breathing characteristics.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Here I'm diving my Trieste II regulator with an octopus, LP inflator for my dry suit, and SPG in about 1975.



    Even so-called "vintage" regulators can be configured with a double post valve from Sherwood to give the use of a second single hose regulator, which has LP and HP ports.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    This is my Mossback Mk 3 regulator, which is considered a "modern" double hose regulator (although very limited numbers were manufactured). It basically uses an Aquamaster second stage, with a completely re-done first stage. I have used it for a number of years now. Unfortunately, it's successor regulator, the Sea Wolf, did not get the crowd funding it needed to be built. But the Kraken regulator is available, and is considered a "modern double hose" because of its breathing characteristics and it's configuration with LP and HP ports. But these features, considered "modern," were actually available many, many years ago. Here is the Aqualung Mistral regulator, which was manufactured by Aqualung for a couple of years to provide a "modern" double hose regulator to the diving public. It was not successful, and was dropped.

    [​IMG]

    So my question is, what do you consider a "modern double hose regulator"?

    SeaRat
     
  2. trapezus

    trapezus Loggerhead Turtle

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
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    John C. Ratllif ,
    I can't tell you what that is Vintage regulator becuse you know much better than me. I'm collecting the ones made with the technique of the previous 50-60 years and I dive with them.How many out put is not important for me. I use Fenzy and wet suit..
    Naturally, they're made New is new. I prefer old one usually Royal Mistral. I have AMF Trieste 2 but I donn't use it.
    Argonaut,Kraken I respect and I congratulate those who labour . Just doesn't feel right to me with the new vintage diving .
     
    John C. Ratliff likes this.
  3. Akimbo

    Akimbo Just a diver Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I though "vintage" was a question of date of manufacture??? The Scubaboard Vintage Forum has settled on Pre-1980.

    A design may have been ahead of its time but it should not disqualify it if the regulator meets the Pre-1980 manufacturing date.
     
    couv, captain and rhwestfall like this.
  4. Nemrod

    Nemrod Solo Diver

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    Single hose regulators date back to the 50s do they not and became popular in the 60s. Nobody seems to confuse an AL Legend with a Calypso J :wink:. The Turkey, like many folks, may well prefer to do deep or technical diving with a modern single hose regulator, good for them, especially on those oh so deep French wrecks. Meh.

    Regardless of the scubaboard definition, I do not recall a vote, Vintage Era SCUBA equipment, like the Muscle Care Era cars is not a floating reference year. Nobody is going to confuse a 1980 Honda Civic with a stupid loud muffler and fake NOS stickers with a 72 Chevelle SS 396. If any of y'all need help with that feel free to give me a shout or turn in your man card.

    Vintage, somewhere abouts 1974 and any equipment made and used prior to that date. Examples, a Royal Aqua Master, Voit Viking Fins.

    Reproduction, similar to if not identical to equipment/parts manufactured and sold and used prior to circa 1974. Examples, various reproduction hoses, Voit UDT fins (available sometimes from various places including Vintage SCUBA Supply).

    Modern, uh, like now? Examples a new AL Titan LX and Atomic split fins.

    So then, between 74 and now, what is all of that junk, beats me? Open to suggestions?

    Then there is this odd group of stuff, quasi-Vintage, examples, Scuba Pro Jet Fins, Squale Mask, Nemrod double hose (made it to the late 90s?). Spanning the years from Vintage Era to modern times in continuous or semi-continuous production and nearly identical over all of the years. Gives some folks heartburn because it is hard to say yea or nay.

    As far as my use of 74, the end of the RAM (?) I could care less really what dates y'all use but it could be an interesting discussion and has been worthy of argument numerous times already. Just do not try to tell me that a plastic Conshelf from 91 is vintage, I think not.

    So, then, the Argonaut Kraken, you will have to ask Luis why he started the thread here, I started a thread in the regulator forum a long time ago. For one thing it is obvious that there are people here who enjoy diving with double hose regulators and thus the modern Argonaut, current manufacture, is perfect for today's photographers and underwater adventurers and explorers who prefer the characteristics of that format. Why not?

    Nobody ever said or implied that the Kraken was vintage, only vintage inspired which by the way same as todays modern single hose regulators are. Large performance increases are unlikely, incrementalism is where we are with all regulators today. Aside from new materials or increased service intervals the performance of all regulators today and really for the last thirty years is about as good as it can get. Yes they were some successful pneumatic servo regs, Tekna, Omega (produced again now), Poseidon, SP Pilot that were on the edge of mechanical limits and until there is an e-regulator, we qare where we are.

    The Argonaut is at the apex of double hose performance, it has several improvements over previous designs, some of which are material related and some are design. There are four modern double hose regulators excluding the Nemrod(??):

    1. AL Mentor, military, rarely seen, only a few outside of the military, beautiful, a unicorn, likely to get an axx wuppin if it ever meets up with a Kraken :wink:.

    2. The AL New Mistral, a POC, poorly designed, poorly executed, a total flop but has cool mouthpieces and hoses, trash bin engineering.

    3. Sea Wolf, I dunno, I think I saw one, nice try, maybe there will be a Round II?

    4. Argonaut Kraken, orders being taken I do believe, I am not sure where dh evolution could go beyond here unless as I wished for and Luis shot it all up :( a pnuematic servo boosted design with a dry piston first? Just dreaming.

    And of course let's not forget the semi-vintage, at least part of it, a little of this and a little of that and some clever engineering and voila, a PRAM HPR.

    Why, because no charter boat or dive op is going to let you jump off their boat into the ocean with a 48 Army surplus Mae West, White Stag knife and a single stage Mistral, at least not in SoFla because they will hardly let a fellow in the pool if the price tags are not still tied to all the gear, aka Minnie Perl. Oh, yeah, and you have to wear your fins on your elbows which is quite difficult with those Voit Vikings, apparently that is a new rule down there for this year of which I am in violation.

    YRMV

    James
     
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  5. rhwestfall

    rhwestfall Woof! ScubaBoard Sponsor

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    The Kraken is considered a "modern double hose" because it is being newly produced. Its design development with perhaps only the DBE (pure speculation on my behalf as I am no DH historian)
    being a "new" element is, like most regulators still quite like vintage in the ways they accomplish their use (realistically, there hasn't been anything "new" in decades or longer). The R&D utilizing modern methods has led to better flow characteristics, and a few other tangible things. Ports are a feature it has, but doesn't claim to be the "innovation" that sets it apart from DH regs of the past.
     
  6. redacted

    redacted Guest

    I'm really not sure about my original Scubapro Pilot. I think it is just and interesting regulator.
     
  7. Nemrod

    Nemrod Solo Diver

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    OK, just in case, let's go over this again for the Turkey.

    Vintage Era:

    [​IMG]

    Not Vintage Era:

    [​IMG]

    N
     
  8. trapezus

    trapezus Loggerhead Turtle

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    We're not going to learn from you what we in Turkey , we're diving deep sunken ships with vintage regulators.. not new..
    here's the difference between us heh ..
    Diving images of the regions from Turkey are examples from diving tourism not vintage diving.. Only it was the introduction of how people just like.

    James, if you are curious come to Turkey but also not with the Kraken only vintage . I'll pay your costs and boat diving. but send an ambulance to notify the USA Consulate in advance.May be you need..
    I know what is vintage ,I have a large vintage doublehose and singlehose regulators in my collection. Not only a few..
    [TABLE="class: b-layout-table b-layout-table_layout_47-47"]
    [TR="class: b-layout-table__row"]
    [TD="class: b-layout-table__gap"][/TD]
    [TD="class: b-layout-table__cell b-layout-table__cell_position_r"]
    • vintage in our opinion, are the ones from 1974 and prior ..


    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
  9. John C. Ratliff

    John C. Ratliff Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Here is another way to dive "vintage" double hose regulators with modern regulators--independent doubles.

    James, I don't agree that diving "vintage double hose" is different from diving the Argonaut Kraken. The diving techniques are the same. The advantages are also the same (bubbles behind you, out of the way of the little critters; clearing the mouthpiece is the same too). Some dive the Argonaut "vintage style" (without an SPG or LP inflator or octopus). But the actual functioning of the regulator is the same, no matter which mode it is dived in.

    Trapezus,

    I am admiring the diving in Turkey. I love your videos of those dives. The interesting thing about diving vintage double hose regulators is that you really don't need the LP inflator hose, as you are diving in warm water and have little need for a buoyancy compensator as your wet suits (I assume) are thin and don't really loose buoyancy like our full wet suits for cold-water diving. I don't think James would need an ambulance if he dove with you in Turkey, as he had a long history of diving with vintage double hose regulators. :wink:

    John
     
  10. SurfLung

    SurfLung Nassau Grouper

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
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    - For me and a couple of my vintage diving buddies, "Vintage" is a lot of things. We like the whole process of acquiring a unique regulator, getting a good deal on it, learning how it works, and ultimately restoring it to good (safe) working condition. And then we have to try it out and compare how it works to our other types and brands of vintage double hose regs.
    - But other aspects of Vintage are the minimalist approach to diving, the skills and fitness that were common requirements before the reliance on modern conveniences, the think-for-yourself common sense approach to doing what's needed for the demands of each dive, the do-it-yourself approach to making or modifying equipment to suit your personal tastes... Stuff like that.
    - At our last Vintage get together at Wazee, Tom and I were trying one completely different tank, reg, and weights combination after another, having to get our buoyancy right each time, etc. etc. And our dates Jill and Becky couldn't understand why we didn't just get one set-up and stick with it. To which we say: "Where's the fun in that?"
    - P.S. Every Post Should include some eye candy...
    SnarkIII01.jpg
     
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